Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[BluesDaddy]

It was cheap for some of us it's no problem, we may also have to add envy to the disagreement
Seriously, the discussion is not about prices, it controls the market, it is about audible sound improvements.

Another not so subtle ad hominem. Were the expensive and cheap caps measured prior to listening to ensure both had the same electrical characteristics? Most audible differences typically attributed to a change in the quality of electrical components like capacitors and inductors are far more likely to be the result of a difference in the electrical characteristics between the two components. This is especially true with loudspeaker crossovers.

 

[Audiotestsystem]

It was cheap for some of us it's no problem, Perhaps we too should add envy to the disagreement
Seriously, the discussion is not about prices, it is controlled by the market , it is about audible sound improvements.

I'm trying to emphasize that it's completely idiotic to give $ 8000 for something you can not hear if you do not know they are there.
When you write it is no problem for you to buy that kind, we have to think that you are in possession of such one and then you can make a measurement of it versus another.
You know, what everyone has been asking for for a long time = Evidence instead of talk

 

[Longshan]

I am both subjective and objective, I also mean you can listen objectively if you want.
I would not be so persistent if I had not participated in several blind tests which showed that there is an audible difference between cables and components in general.

I am educated in electronics and I also find the gap between perceived sound and measured sound both large and inexplicable in some cases, one thing can be stated, more of the same give the same sound, by that I mean cables and components made of approximately the same Materials and in the same way, (typically the cheap efficient industrial way) will give very small audible sound differences or none at all.

You need to compare two capacitors as shown here if you really want to hear sound differences that are clearly audible. .
View attachment 124571
It is important to realize that you do not necessarily buy a better capacitor by paying 50 times or more, but you get better sound. The common denominator is pure and natural material, attenuation of vibrations , not magnetic, foil Minimum copper and not metallized.

Most hardcore objectivists will not get there, I would almost guarantee that. A capacitor costs 1 $ and not hundred, it is snakeoil and completely wild prices, There is another word used about such components, something with b help me?

Therefore, they will never experience audible differences that is really surprised , this is also part of the big gap in this discussion.

This pure nonsense.

 

[Frgirard]

The components psychopathology.

 

[AdamG]

It was cheap for some of us it's no problem, Perhaps we too should add envy to the disagreement
Seriously, the discussion is not about prices, it is controlled by the market , it is about audible sound improvements.

Hi kristiansen,

Firstly a warm Welcome Aboard! This is a Science first type of Forum. It’s in our name. Therefore anyone, not just you, who makes the type of Audio improvement claims by using a Widget or cable, will be asked to provide scientific proof. If your claim of improvement is just your opinion and you have no such supportive evidence. Than just state it’s your Opinion and everyone should move on. We are not here to tell you that you did not experience what you think you did.

 

[SIY]

I am both subjective and objective, I also mean you can listen objectively if you want.
I would not be so persistent if I had not participated in several blind tests which showed that there is an audible difference between cables and components in general.

I am educated in electronics and I also find the gap between perceived sound and measured sound both large and inexplicable in some cases, one thing can be stated, more of the same give the same sound, by that I mean cables and components made of approximately the same Materials and in the same way, (typically the cheap efficient industrial way) will give very small audible sound differences or none at all.

You need to compare two capacitors as shown here if you really want to hear sound differences that are clearly audible. .
View attachment 124571
It is important to realize that you do not necessarily buy a better capacitor by paying 50 times or more, but you get better sound. The common denominator is pure and natural material, attenuation of vibrations , not magnetic, foil Minimum copper and not metallized.

Most hardcore objectivists will not get there, I would almost guarantee that. A capacitor costs 1 $ and not hundred, it is snakeoil and completely wild prices, There is another word used about such components, something with b help me?

Therefore, they will never experience audible differences that is really surprised , this is also part of the big gap in this discussion.

If you really had an education in electronics, you need to demand a refund. They failed you badly.

 

[kristiansen]

AdamG247 Quote

Hi kristiansen,

Firstly a warm Welcome Aboard! This is a Science first type of Forum. It’s in our name. Therefore anyone, not just you, who makes the type of Audio improvement claims by using a Widget or cable, will be asked to provide scientific proof. If your claim of improvement is just your opinion and you have no such supportive evidence. Than just state it’s your Opinion and everyone should move on. We are not here to tell you that you did not experience what you think you did. QUOTE end

I do not have the evidence I seek them.
I participated in a blind test which clearly shows that there is an audible sound difference between cables and various components and entire hi-fi devices.
No it is not documented, I am not a scientist, neither were the other participants, we were just happy hi-fi enthusiasts.

Millions of people have had the same experiences as me probably also with non-scientific blind tests etc.
Do you think it is scientific to downplay millions of people's experiences, including many well-educated skilled people. As there is a tendency on this forums

Is it science to measure a lot of data on hi-fi devices? Which tells very little about what people hear , something that is done in any factory every single day.

Science is for example what doctors do, they observe that many are helped by alternative medicine and guidance. They test it, find theories and implement it.
See it's science.
Observation, analysis, hypothesis, hypothesis testing, development of theory.

Ps added
My posts in this thread are just the opposite attitude to thread starters which provoked me, I definitely do not mean the same and I do not need to learn anything (Other than English), but such heretical opinions there is obviously no room for here
By the way, I have gone the other way, I was first as most people are here,

 

[SIY]

[

Millions of people have had the same experiences as me probably also with non-scientific blind tests etc.
Do you think it is scientific to downplay millions of people's experiences, including many well-educated skilled people. As there is a tendency on this forums

In terms of their experiences mapped to reality? Presented without evidence and contrary to well-established physics and sensory science?

Yes. Absolutely. Nonsense times a million is still nonsense.

 

[Thomas savage]

"I am sure that with that setup I could pass DBT and ABX testing, and so could all here. (And to hell with flattery)."

Spare us another full page wafting of extremities and do said tests before posting extraordinary claims next time then. Thanks.

I didn't get through that self explanation, so the stripper died but it wasn't his fault ? And he just dug the hole coz it seemed like the right thing to do despite the fact said hole was 300 miles form site of death ...

OK..

 

[Jimbob54]

I didn't get through that self explanation, so the stripper died but it wasn't his fault ? And he just dug the hole coz it seemed like the right thing to do despite the fact said hole was 300 miles form site of death ...

OK..

I think that sums it up.

 

[BluesDaddy]

I do not have the evidence I seek them.
I participated in a blind test which clearly shows that there is an audible sound difference between cables and various components and entire hi-fi devices.
No it is not documented, I am not a scientist, neither were the other participants, we were just happy hi-fi enthusiasts.

Okay, so write up a description, including date and place, equipment "tested", and the methodology (as best you can recall) of the "blind" test. Was it double blind? Was it ABX? Was the exact same equipment used other than the cables you were "listening" to? IOW, write up a "report" of the experience using who, what, when, and how IF you want it to be more than simply your asserting you've done it over and over again.

Millions of people have had the same experiences as me probably also with non-scientific blind tests etc.
Do you think it is scientific to downplay millions of people's experiences, including many well-educated skilled people. As there is a tendency on this forums

Millions of people also believe in ghosts, in ESP, and that the earth is flat. Some very well educated (by which, I gather, you mean have attended college and have degrees - which isn't really the same thing, but that's another discussion) and "skilled" (whatever that is supposed to convey). Yes, without EVIDENCE, it IS "scientific" to "downplay" their experiences. The brain is easily tricked. Eyewitness testimony is the LEAST reliable evidence in a court of law. Millions are people are wrong about millions of things every day.

The rest of your post was nonsense. (Edit: by which I don't mean to imply that the above quotations aren't nonsense as well, just a little less than the rest.)

 

[Audiotestsystem]

AdamG247 Quote

Hi kristiansen,

Firstly a warm Welcome Aboard! This is a Science first type of Forum. It’s in our name. Therefore anyone, not just you, who makes the type of Audio improvement claims by using a Widget or cable, will be asked to provide scientific proof. If your claim of improvement is just your opinion and you have no such supportive evidence. Than just state it’s your Opinion and everyone should move on. We are not here to tell you that you did not experience what you think you did. QUOTE end

I do not have the evidence I seek them.
I participated in a blind test which clearly shows that there is an audible sound difference between cables and various components and entire hi-fi devices.
No it is not documented, I am not a scientist, neither were the other participants, we were just happy hi-fi enthusiasts.

Millions of people have had the same experiences as me probably also with non-scientific blind tests etc.
Do you think it is scientific to downplay millions of people's experiences, including many well-educated skilled people. As there is a tendency on this forums

Is it science to measure a lot of data on hi-fi devices? Which tells very little about what people hear , something that is done in any factory every single day.

Science is for example what doctors do, they observe that many are helped by alternative medicine and guidance. They test it, find theories and implement it.
See it's science.
Observation, analysis, hypothesis, hypothesis testing, development of theory.

Ps added
My posts in this thread are just the opposite attitude to thread starters which provoked me, I definitely do not mean the same and I do not need to learn anything (Other than English), but such heretical opinions there is obviously no room for here
By the way, I have gone the other way, I was first as most people are here,

kristiansen

Now drop everything you cannot prove.
That millions have experienced the same thing as you is pure guesswork.
Anyone can write what you write.
But there are tests done against it, that prove the opposite of your claims
And why do you become warlike just because others have a different opinion ?

 

[AdamG]

Welcome Aboard @Audiotestsystem.

 

[ahofer]

It was cheap for some of us it's no problem, Perhaps we too should add envy to the disagreement

Another rule, similar to the bragging rule above, from my 34 years on Wall Street: Fat mouth, thin wallet.

 

[Rottmannash]

kristiansen

Now drop everything you cannot prove.
That millions have experienced the same thing as you is pure guesswork.
Anyone can write what you write.
But there are tests done against it, that prove the opposite of your claims
And why do you become warlike just because others have a different opinion ?

Warlike...I like that. Succinct.

 

[raistlin65]

I was a technical writer for the Scientific Instrument Research Association, writing extensive reports in the '70s, my being chosen because the seniors regarded my English as better than many of the much better qualified scientists in that organisation, even that of many PhDs.

That would explain things. Your writing often exhibits some characteristics of 20th-century academicese. And it does not show an understanding of 21st-century technical communication principles. Internet forum postings are a different genre than writing 1970 scientific reports. There are a variety of rhetorical reasons why the genre has elements of orality. Maybe it's time you catch up?

Let me try to clarify what I think is sloppy language usage.
"No. All bias is not blindspot. Read the link I gave in the other comment. It explains it"

By this I think you mean "Not all bias is blindspot". (Syntax).

No. I intentionally dictated it that way. But I can tell from your writing, that you don't understand how to vary sentence length for emphasis.

Also, you are replying to different people about their language usage in the same post. Not sure if you realized that.

But the genre convention is to use the quote option that the forum software has. Not only does that make things clearer for everyone as to whom you are replying to. But we can also click on the arrow at the top of the quoted text to jump back to the original post.

 

[richard12511]

But the genre convention is to use the quote option that the forum software has. Not only does that make things clearer for everyone as to whom you are replying to. But we can also click on the arrow at the top of the quoted text to jump back to the original post.

This!

Please use the forum quote feature, as the manual quoting makes it impossible to tell which post you're quoting without (often multiple) ctrl +f

 

[kristiansen]

This seems like a hypothesis without evidence.

From
"A scientific hypothesis is the initial building block in the scientific method. Many describe it as an "educated guess," based on prior knowledge and observation. While this is true, the definition can be expanded. A hypothesis also includes an explanation of why the guess may be correct, according to National Science Teachers Association.

Hypothesis basics
A hypothesis is a suggested solution for an unexplained occurrence that does not fit into current accepted scientific theory. The basic idea of a hypothesis is that there is no pre-determined outcome. For a hypothesis to be termed a scientific hypothesis, it has to be something that can be supported or refuted through carefully crafted experimentation or observation. This is called falsifiability and testability, an idea that was advanced in the mid-20th century a British philosopher named Karl Popper, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica.

A key function in this step in the scientific method is deriving predictions from the hypotheses about the results of future experiments, and then performing those experiments to see whether they support the predictions.

A hypothesis is usually written in the form of an if/then statement, according to the University of California. This statement gives a possibility (if) and explains what may happen because of the possibility (then). The statement could also include "may."


My hypothesis is that there is an audible difference in passive components to varying degrees depending on the component's basic quality and materials, the hypothesis is supported by experiments and blind tests and probably millions of people independent observations around the world.

Overall, it shows that there must be audible sound differences that cannot be explained 100% through current electronics theory, Theoretically, the hypothesis can be made probable via the equivalent diagram of passive components and based on the logical train of thought that there are either sound differences to varying degrees, or there are no sound differences at all.

The final theoretical proof may not currently exist in electronics theory.
So part of the hypothesis is that it may go beyond what the electronics theory covers.
Experiments have been carried out which show that the hypothesis cannot be supported by the current electronics theory, e.g. Is this shown via Null test.


"WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free!"

But if you do not have the same opinion as the ruler of this forum, you must be ready to accept that everything sensible you write will be ignored and the rest will be called Nonsense and again Nonsense and always without argumentation. If they have not closed your mouth after this you should expect them to go exclusively after your person.

 

[Frgirard]

My hypothesis is that there is an audible difference in passive components to varying degrees depending on the component's basic quality and materials, the hypothesis is supported by experiments and blind tests and probably millions of people independent observations around the world.

I am doctor of physic from the Poudlard University.
I agree with you.

 

[Phorize]

69 pages ... for what ?
I think that OP wanted to resume this whole thread in just a single post.

You will never convince either "camp".

Now that we have 2 moderators:
Wouldn't it be time to close this never ending thread ??

AdamG247 Quote

Hi kristiansen,

Firstly a warm Welcome Aboard! This is a Science first type of Forum. It’s in our name. Therefore anyone, not just you, who makes the type of Audio improvement claims by using a Widget or cable, will be asked to provide scientific proof. If your claim of improvement is just your opinion and you have no such supportive evidence. Than just state it’s your Opinion and everyone should move on. We are not here to tell you that you did not experience what you think you did. QUOTE end

I do not have the evidence I seek them.
I participated in a blind test which clearly shows that there is an audible sound difference between cables and various components and entire hi-fi devices.
No it is not documented, I am not a scientist, neither were the other participants, we were just happy hi-fi enthusiasts.

Millions of people have had the same experiences as me probably also with non-scientific blind tests etc.
Do you yourself think it is scientific to downplay millions of people's experiences, including many well-educated skilled people. As there is a tendency on this forums

Is it science to measure a lot of data on hi-fi devices? Which tells very little about what people hear , something that is done in any factory every single day.

Science is for example what doctors do, they observe that many are helped by alternative medicine and guidance. They test it, find theories and implement it.
See it's science.
Observation, analysis, hypothesis, hypothesis testing, development of theory.

Great idea.