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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Shadrach

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Blind testing makes very little sense because how and why should we rely on insights gained with blind testing when 99.9% of people listen to equipment not only with their auditory sense but also look at equipment, think of what they paid for it, they might unconsciously find the brand aspirational.

Blind testing also ignores the growing evidence that our senses are intricately linked - so a thick red cable can perhaps sound better than a blue one.
Blind testing and double blind testing is not meant to be used to discover if one has a preference. It should be used to discover if one can hear a difference between one product and another. Nothing more.

You are absolutely correct when you write people use more than their hearing to assess their preferences in audio equipment.
There is nothing wrong in prefering a fat blue pair of speaker cables to a thin red pair. There isn't any getting away from if it sounds better to a listener then to them it is better. Lots of people buy audo equipment for this reason.

What all the testing about is to provide a standard of performance. One may detest the product and prefer a product that performs measurably less well.

What has been discovered is that a sample of listeners have under test conditions prefered equipment that has measured well.
 

kemmler3D

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Blind testing makes very little sense because how and why should we rely on insights gained with blind testing when 99.9% of people listen to equipment not only with their auditory sense but also look at equipment, think of what they paid for it, they might unconsciously find the brand aspirational.

Blind testing also ignores the growing evidence that our senses are intricately linked - so a thick red cable can perhaps sound better than a blue one.

Fancier gear is definitely perceived to sound better, the effect is remarkably consistent. However, it doesn't actually sound better. That's the point of making measurements.

Measurements make it possible to find out how something sounds without actually listening to it. When we listen, our ears hear, but our brain perceives - and the color of cables begins to have an effect. How can we be sure we're hearing the gear and not the red cable? We can't, not without measuring something.

As we have seen over the decades, the brain's influence over perception of sound makes it impossible to accurately describe the real differences between gear without doing some measurements.

I think people are free to lean into self-induced placebo effect if they have the time, money and inclination, but we should be honest about it. Measurements are simply a means of enforcing honesty. They are never meant to replace one's ears.

We can design gear to (actually) sound good via blind testing, we can then design it to sound better, by adding bling and a high price tag. Both approaches are arguably necessary.
 

Benton1234

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Hi ASR forums!

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but, I wanted to admit I have just recently realized I'm one of those audiophiles chasing "special" source gear only to finally come to a conclusion that it's the brain playing tricks on me. This seemed like the thread to admit in as the original post fit my journey very well over these last 10 years.

I went from a PSP with some Sony headphones from BestBuy to ATH-M50's, Beyer Custom One Pro's, then bought a Fiio E07K Andes to drive my headphones still through the PSP (Lasted my all through middle school and high school).

After high school I ended up with my Beyer COP's into an NFB-11 and I thought that was a crazy upgrade from my Creative SoundBlaster in my FX-8350 machine at the time.

Then I get hit with the big snake oil, I have a few friends telling me that Mike Moffat's Theta DAC's are the best thing to ever exist and I'm sold! I find a DS Pro Basic I for about $300 shipped on eBay that ends up actually being a DS Pro Basic III when I took the steel cover off and inspect the chips inside. I thought I had hit Summit-Fi for really cheap. I did also get an NFB-1 Amp around this time as well and a Schiit Eitr for the coax to USB conversion on the Theta.

Unfortunately, I was pretty sure I heard some audible noise when my room was quiet, not even my Creative sound card had this much noise. My friends thought I was deaf and were pleading with me to just sell it or give it to them since "I didn't what I had".

Then, I get pulled into learning about Delta Sigma DACs and how R2R is "just better". This was also what sold my on the Theta purchase.

Somewhere between the next "adventure" and the Theta purchase I got a THX 789 and was extremely happy with it. Though it was sold pretty quick to pay for the next unfortunate decision.

At this point I was really wanting something more compact, and if possible, portable as well. But most portable gear I had found didn't have a great amp or I was just being picky on features. This lead to another friend pushing the Chord Hugo 2 and I scoffed at the price. $1500 for this black or silver wallet with RGB seemed insane right?

Well, I convinced myself that this would be it. I'd get a "baby yggdrasil" that was portable! I had also acquired a set of HD 800's with the SDR/French Mod on eBay for quite a steal, around $600 shipped.

I finally had it all! The most detailed/resolving headphones, a killer DAC/Amp, and some nice custom cables from a friend to tie it all in.

And I've been pretty happy with this Hugo 2 + HD 800 combo for about 2 years. Then I find ASR about a month ago.

The more I read, the more disappointed I get. But, I FINALLY found a location for information that made sense! There was no "warmer is best", "Dark amps are all the rage!", "It's R2R or nothing!". Everything started to make sense as some of the gear I've had or listened to over the years was thankfully measured by Amirm here. The complaints of noise or measurements that showed how hot garbage some of the things I've been lead to believe were the best, are now shown in full color.

I have a lot to learn still but, I think I'm definitely done with pouring money into this hobby expecting a magical outcome from special transformers, magic DACs, burn-in times, and cables that will give you at least 200% more fidelity.

I'm extremely thankful of the community here and I'm shocked how understanding all the members are. Even threads that seem to end in a negative light are kept up and reading through them helps tremendously when you start realizing how deep into the façade of the audio industry some of these people are.

I'm happy to be a member and to have found this community!
 
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pkane

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Hi ASR forums!

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but, I wanted to admit I have just recently realized I'm one of those audiophiles chasing "special" source gear only to finally come to a conclusion that it's the brain playing tricks on me. This seemed like the thread to admit in as the original post fit my journey very well over these last 10 years.

I went from a PSP with some Sony headphones from BestBuy to ATH-M50's, Beyer Custom One Pro's, then bought a Fiio E07K Andes to drive my headphones still through the PSP (Lasted my all through middle school and high school).

After high school I ended up with my Beyer COP's into an NFB-11 and I thought that was a crazy upgrade from my Creative SoundBlaster in my FX-8350 machine at the time.

Then I get hit with the big snake oil, I have a few friends telling me that Mike Moffat's Theta DAC's are the best thing to ever exist and I'm sold! I find a DS Pro Basic I for about $300 shipped on eBay that ends up actually being a DS Pro Basic III when I took the steel cover off and inspect the chips inside. I thought I had hit Summit-Fi for really cheap. I did also get an NFB-1 Amp around this time as well and a Schiit Eitr for the coax to USB conversion on the Theta.

Unfortunately, I was pretty sure I heard some audible noise when my room was quiet, not even my Creative sound card had this much noise. My friends thought I was deaf and were pleading with me to just sell it or give it to them since "I didn't what I had".

Then, I get pulled into learning about Delta Sigma DACs and how R2R is "just better". This was also what sold my on the Theta purchase.

Somewhere between the next "adventure" and the Theta purchase I got a THX 789 and was extremely happy with it. Though it was sold pretty quick to pay for the next unfortunate decision.

At this point I was really wanting something more compact, and if possible, portable as well. But most portable gear I had found didn't have a great amp or I was just being picky on features. This lead to another friend pushing the Chord Hugo 2 and I scoffed at the price. $1500 for this black or silver wallet with RGB seemed insane right?

Well, I convinced myself that this would be it. I'd get a "baby yggdrasil" that was portable! I had also acquired a set of HD 800's with the SDR/French Mod on eBay for quite a steal, around $600 shipped.

I finally had it all! The most detailed/resolving headphones, a killer DAC/Amp, and some nice custom cables from a friend to tie it all in.

And I've been pretty happy with this Hugo 2 + HD 800 combo for about 2 years. Then I find ASR about a month ago.

The more I read, the more disappointed I get. But, I FINALLY found a location for information that made sense! There was no "warmer is best", "Dark amps are all the rage!", "It's R2R or nothing!". Everything started to make sense as some of the gear I've had or listened to over the years was thankfully measured by Amirm here. The complaints of noise or measurements that showed how hot garbage some of the things I've been lead to believe were the best, are now shown in full color.

I have a lot to learn still but, I think I'm definitely done with pouring money into this hobby expecting a magical outcome from special transformers, magic DACs, burn-in times, and cables that will give you at least 200% more fidelity.

I'm extremely thankful of the community here and I'm shocked how understanding all the members are. Even threads that seem to end in a negative light are kept up and reading through them helps tremendously when you start realizing how deep into the façade of the audio industry some of these people are.

I'm happy to be a member and to have found this community!

Welcome! I think you'll find that many regulars here are just like you -- recovering audiophiles. There's a lot of good information but the most important thing to take away, in my opinion, is the need for critical thinking. Just accepting what the "media" and marketers are trying to sell you is to be caught on a hamster wheel trying to get off by running faster and faster.
 

fpitas

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Welcome! I think you'll find that many regulars here are just like you -- recovering audiophiles. There's a lot of good information but the most important thing to take away, in my opinion, is the need for critical thinking. Just accepting what the "media" and marketers are trying to sell you is to be caught on a hamster wheel trying to get off by running faster and faster.
...and you have to keep paying more to buy faster wheels.
 

kemmler3D

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The funny thing about ASR is that it's made me more of "an audiophile". I started out being very skeptical about the audibility of noise or distortion below -60dB, I didn't appreciate the importance of dispersion at all, (just sit closer and listen nearfield, easy), I considered listening above 95dB to be virtually suicidal (still do to some extent) and I figured any 100W class-D amp was plenty good enough as long as it was wired correctly. For some reason reading the SINAD charts and reviews increased my willingness to pay for better performance on those metrics. I'm not totally insane yet, but I did spend $600 on amps for $400 speakers, so my sanity might be slipping... :oops:
 

antcollinet

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Hi ASR forums!

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but, I wanted to admit I have just recently realized I'm one of those audiophiles chasing "special" source gear only to finally come to a conclusion that it's the brain playing tricks on me. This seemed like the thread to admit in as the original post fit my journey very well over these last 10 years.

I went from a PSP with some Sony headphones from BestBuy to ATH-M50's, Beyer Custom One Pro's, then bought a Fiio E07K Andes to drive my headphones still through the PSP (Lasted my all through middle school and high school).

After high school I ended up with my Beyer COP's into an NFB-11 and I thought that was a crazy upgrade from my Creative SoundBlaster in my FX-8350 machine at the time.

Then I get hit with the big snake oil, I have a few friends telling me that Mike Moffat's Theta DAC's are the best thing to ever exist and I'm sold! I find a DS Pro Basic I for about $300 shipped on eBay that ends up actually being a DS Pro Basic III when I took the steel cover off and inspect the chips inside. I thought I had hit Summit-Fi for really cheap. I did also get an NFB-1 Amp around this time as well and a Schiit Eitr for the coax to USB conversion on the Theta.

Unfortunately, I was pretty sure I heard some audible noise when my room was quiet, not even my Creative sound card had this much noise. My friends thought I was deaf and were pleading with me to just sell it or give it to them since "I didn't what I had".

Then, I get pulled into learning about Delta Sigma DACs and how R2R is "just better". This was also what sold my on the Theta purchase.

Somewhere between the next "adventure" and the Theta purchase I got a THX 789 and was extremely happy with it. Though it was sold pretty quick to pay for the next unfortunate decision.

At this point I was really wanting something more compact, and if possible, portable as well. But most portable gear I had found didn't have a great amp or I was just being picky on features. This lead to another friend pushing the Chord Hugo 2 and I scoffed at the price. $1500 for this black or silver wallet with RGB seemed insane right?

Well, I convinced myself that this would be it. I'd get a "baby yggdrasil" that was portable! I had also acquired a set of HD 800's with the SDR/French Mod on eBay for quite a steal, around $600 shipped.

I finally had it all! The most detailed/resolving headphones, a killer DAC/Amp, and some nice custom cables from a friend to tie it all in.

And I've been pretty happy with this Hugo 2 + HD 800 combo for about 2 years. Then I find ASR about a month ago.

The more I read, the more disappointed I get. But, I FINALLY found a location for information that made sense! There was no "warmer is best", "Dark amps are all the rage!", "It's R2R or nothing!". Everything started to make sense as some of the gear I've had or listened to over the years was thankfully measured by Amirm here. The complaints of noise or measurements that showed how hot garbage some of the things I've been lead to believe were the best, are now shown in full color.

I have a lot to learn still but, I think I'm definitely done with pouring money into this hobby expecting a magical outcome from special transformers, magic DACs, burn-in times, and cables that will give you at least 200% more fidelity.

I'm extremely thankful of the community here and I'm shocked how understanding all the members are. Even threads that seem to end in a negative light are kept up and reading through them helps tremendously when you start realizing how deep into the façade of the audio industry some of these people are.

I'm happy to be a member and to have found this community!
Sometimes its difficult to admit to being led to spend money you didn't need to. You've made the first steps to a world of cost effective, but high quality music.

Welcome to ASR.
 

Mnyb

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Welcome! I think you'll find that many regulars here are just like you -- recovering audiophiles. There's a lot of good information but the most important thing to take away, in my opinion, is the need for critical thinking. Just accepting what the "media" and marketers are trying to sell you is to be caught on a hamster wheel trying to get off by running faster and faster.
Yep , that’s I why it can be tiresome when someone jumps in to “lecture” us :) on how cable risers and fancy mains cables really is the bees knees . When many like me already believed all if for a very long time, so it’s more like been there done that got the T-shirt and it didn’t work :) we already tried all of it , sadly. So the argument that we haven’t tried does not work and not the tin-ear argument either as I did “hear” the differences too.
 

kemmler3D

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It's very easy to hear differences that aren't there, (as others have said) it's very hard to admit that to yourself if you've spent money on illusory differences.

Even as a professional in audio, I have once or twice heard subtle differences while adjusting EQs that were not engaged. I wondered why the sound was changing less than expected, until I realized it was not changing at all. The most powerful piece of equipment in the signal chain is our brain, and let me tell you, it's subject to all sorts of interference...
 

Peluvius

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It's very easy to hear differences that aren't there, (as others have said) it's very hard to admit that to yourself if you've spent money on illusory differences.

Even as a professional in audio, I have once or twice heard subtle differences while adjusting EQs that were not engaged. I wondered why the sound was changing less than expected, until I realized it was not changing at all. The most powerful piece of equipment in the signal chain is our brain, and let me tell you, it's subject to all sorts of interference...


There are plenty of others.
 
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The funny thing about ASR is that it's made me more of "an audiophile". I started out being very skeptical about the audibility of noise or distortion below -60dB, I didn't appreciate the importance of dispersion at all, (just sit closer and listen nearfield, easy), I considered listening above 95dB to be virtually suicidal (still do to some extent) and I figured any 100W class-D amp was plenty good enough as long as it was wired correctly. For some reason reading the SINAD charts and reviews increased my willingness to pay for better performance on those metrics. I'm not totally insane yet, but I did spend $600 on amps for $400 speakers, so my sanity might be slipping... :oops:
Got some good links to learn a bit about everything you mentioned?
 

kemmler3D

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Got some good links to learn a bit about everything you mentioned?
There's a ton of links in the various sub-forums on here, and reading diyAudio threads was also really important for me to learn about why dispersion matters and how it works.

In a nutshell and to save you some time - since a lot of sound you actually hear is bouncing off the wall before it gets to you, you want the bouncing sound to have basically the same frequency response as the direct sound. This is what you get from 'spinoramas' - they show you the frequency response at different angles from the speaker. When the frequency response gets funky at different angles, that's considered a problem with directivity. When the frequency response is the same, or at least changes very smoothly depending on what angle you're at, it's considered good directivity.

Dispersion / directivity has a lot to do with the size of the drivers and the shape of the speaker cabinet. When the wavelength of the sound gets close to, bigger, or smaller than either of those items, things happen to directivity. This is why speakers have to do all kinds of fancy s*** to handle directivity at low frequencies, because the wavelengths are between 12 and 60 feet long.

Audibility is pretty complex but there are some good threads on it here. The simple version is "you can't hear quiet stuff if there are other, loud things playing at the same time", but it's never really that simple.

100W is usually good enough if your speakers are pretty sensitive, but the bad news is a lot of good speakers aren't sensitive at all, and you also need x2 power for every 3dB of gain after the first watt. If your speakers are only (say) 86dB/w sensitive, and you want 114dB peaks... suddenly 100w doesn't seem like much at all. I came in not caring about peaks too much, after reading and thinking more, started to care about them, especially after I realized many class D amps have effectively no headroom above their continuous power rating. Now I have NC500 monoblocks. :D

Listening above 90dB for any extended period of time actually does damage your hearing, though. It's just that certain recordings (esp. vintage) will have more dynamic range where you might want to go higher.
 

MaxBuck

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You've just given the reasons why blind testing is so important.
It's essential in objective evaluation. I'm not sure it's necessarily much use to individuals selecting their equipment. I certainly didn't do a blind test of my KEF R11s before purchasing them; listening with my eyes wide open, comparing them to competing speakers, was sufficient for my purposes.
 

Newman

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I'm not sure it's necessarily much use to individuals selecting their equipment.
Only to individuals who want to know which sound waves they prefer.

Having said that, I am perfectly sympathetic to the idea of making one's personal purchase decisions based on the illusion. link
 
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antcollinet

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Only to individuals who want to know which sound waves they prefer.

Which is not possible unless you can do an in home comparison. A facility not available to most purchasers, I'd think.

For electronics, I'm pretty happy to rely on measurements. For speakers, the best I can hope for is an in store comparison - in which case sighted listening is probably less likely to make a bad decision than the room interaction is.
 

Newman

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For speakers, the best I can hope for is an in store comparison - in which case sighted listening is probably less likely to make a bad decision than the room interaction is.
According to Toole, it's the other way around. In his book he says (Ch 20.2, first edition), "listeners have a remarkable ability to "listen through" rooms and to be able to extract key information about sound sources".
 

antcollinet

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According to Toole, it's the other way around. In his book he says (Ch 20.2, first edition), "listeners have a remarkable ability to "listen through" rooms and to be able to extract key information about sound sources".
Possibly - but more to the point, I don't think it would be likely an audio store is going to be willing to set up a properly controlled blind test.
 

Peluvius

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According to Toole, it's the other way around. In his book he says (Ch 20.2, first edition), "listeners have a remarkable ability to "listen through" rooms and to be able to extract key information about sound sources".

This has not been my own experience. I have found on more than one occasion a speaker I loved in a random listening room sounded sufficiently different in my own space i was disappointed. I may be well be sub par in my ability to discern the "key information", open to that possibility....
 

Bob from Florida

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And I've been pretty happy with this Hugo 2 + HD 800 combo for about 2 years. Then I find ASR about a month ago.


I have a lot to learn still but, I think I'm definitely done with pouring money into this hobby expecting a magical outcome from special transformers, magic DACs, burn-in times, and cables that will give you at least 200% more fidelity.
So, you basically had an audio journey. Complete with lots of equipment changes to end at the above combination. Then you discover ASR and it would appear you are no longer happy with gear you were happy with for 2 years. You state you are done pouring money into the hobby. Given your current state of unhappiness, how is it possible more money will not be spent? Has discovering ASR and the emphasis on measurements created the impetus to change your gear again because the stuff you were happy with measures poorly?

Now for some unsolicited advice. Carefully consider whether an improvement in SINAD will be audible. If not, then you are wasting your money making the change. Now, if the new good measuring equipment has a feature you want but don't currently have - that would be a good reason to make a change. On the other hand, some folks get their kicks by spending money on stuff - which is fine.

Your story appears to show how you got sucked into the bullshit aspect of the audio business. Chasing better measurements past a certain point only gets you "bragging rights". Once you reach the point of inaudibility of measured parameters, anything past that point is a waste of time and money.
 
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