Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Doodski]

An interesting insight in to the dynamics of some audiophile forums...

Someone on SteveHoffmanForums posted a thread asking the question:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?​

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Alright, so I got XLRs for a balanced connection, I got 12 Gauge speaker wire, I plan on Bi- Wiring next... But what is this hubbub about power cords...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I posted my opinion on the second page here, the skeptical case:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Remember you don’t need to rush things. All the upgrades will still be there later. Enjoy your system. Spend some time getting familiar with it’s...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Despite giving the opinion in a civil manner, just giving the reasons for skepticism was enough to have me banned from the thread.

Despite the fact that my post actually got the most "likes" in the thread (23) suggesting a significant number of that very forum's members share that viewpoint.

So basically, in forums like that, you can ask the question "Do power cables really matter" and you can give an opinion...but only if your answer is "Yes."

And it's the "objectivists" who these folks constantly accuse of close-minded dogmatism.

Let them have their special place...lol. If they really want to be into cables they are going to do it no matter what anybody suggests or says to them. Boggles the mind but it is what it is.

 

[tmtomh]

An interesting insight in to the dynamics of some audiophile forums...

Someone on SteveHoffmanForums posted a thread asking the question:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?​

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Alright, so I got XLRs for a balanced connection, I got 12 Gauge speaker wire, I plan on Bi- Wiring next... But what is this hubbub about power cords...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I posted my opinion on the second page here, the skeptical case:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Remember you don’t need to rush things. All the upgrades will still be there later. Enjoy your system. Spend some time getting familiar with it’s...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Despite giving the opinion in a civil manner, just giving the reasons for skepticism was enough to have me banned from the thread.

Despite the fact that my post actually got the most "likes" in the thread (23) suggesting a significant number of that very forum's members share that viewpoint.

So basically, in forums like that, you can ask the question "Do power cables really matter" and you can give an opinion...but only if your answer is "Yes."

And it's the "objectivists" who these folks constantly accuse of close-minded dogmatism.

Sorry that happened to you - totally uncalled-for in my view. I went over to the Hoffman forums and read the thread. Your post was excellent, and as you say - and as many others in the thread recognized - quite civil, polite, generous, and well-reasoned.

For what it's worth, I would guess the reason you were thread-banned was your point #3: you went into a good bit of detail about confirmation bias and the unreliability of sighted listening tests. To be 100% clear, I am NOT IN ANY WAY justifying your thread-ban. I'm just saying that discussion and debate of issues related to ABX/blind listening tests is against the SH forum rules, and so my guess is that an overly zealous moderator thread-banned you because they interpreted your post as breaking that rule. I don't know if any other folks have been thread-banned there, but I noted 2-3 other folks saying essentially the same thing as you, except they did not go into any detail about, or say anything explicit about, how subjective listening tests are unreliable. Ironic since you got punished for taking the time to explain the issue in more detail and with more precision.

At any rate, thanks for carrying the flag over there!

 

[Sal1950]

And it's the "objectivists" who these folks constantly accuse of close-minded dogmatism.

They're terrified that their little religion will be shown the truth of the emperors new clothes.

 

[sjeesjie]

What a sad forum that is. I want to have a look but I’m hesitant because I read the Furutech NHF (or whatever) thread. It made me sad and angry somehow.

 

[killdozzer]

Did you miss the bit where he said “for me…”

That doesn't change a thing. Well, perhaps for audiophools.

 

[antcollinet]

... I'm just saying that discussion and debate of issues related to ABX/blind listening tests is against the SH forum rules,...

Really?? That is a bit like a church outlawing discussion of science.

That sort of dogmatism is a really good reason for having nothing to do with them.

 

[antcollinet]

That doesn't change a thing. Well, perhaps for audiophools.

So for you a person's personal reasons for enjoying something are false if they don't match yours?

 

[Blumlein 88]

SH forums are garbage. They sometimes disappear an entire thread if a couple people make reasonable posts they don't like. I think it is the only forum I've ever been banned from. That was a result of commenting quite reasonably in something like three threads they decided to erase due to my posts and another person. So they blamed me with the need to disappear threads, and banned me. I'd been careful to abide by their rules like the ABX phobia they have. Yet it was mostly asking questions they couldn't answer that stuck in their craw.

 

[StuartC]

Sometimes I truly despair that in Humanity's most advanced, enlightened age we are still plagued by dogma and faith-related opposition to fact and reality. It's amazing that we ever came down from the trees really.....

 

[novice]

it doesn't explain why one would continue to play back vinyl.

Sometimes just because. Same for shooting black powder, using a mechanical watch, or driving a classic car.

Because you can, because it's enjoyable.

 

[dkinric]

That doesn't change a thing. Well, perhaps for audiophools.

LOL Killdozzer - I don't even understand what your objection is. My comment was a pushback on the old saying that Audiophiles use music to listen to their systems as opposed to people who use their systems to listen to music. My point was it's not an either/or - they can enhance each other. Is this a controversial opinion? Isn't that why we're all here - the appreciation of music and equipment?

 

[Mart68]

An interesting insight in to the dynamics of some audiophile forums...

Someone on SteveHoffmanForums posted a thread asking the question:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?​

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Alright, so I got XLRs for a balanced connection, I got 12 Gauge speaker wire, I plan on Bi- Wiring next... But what is this hubbub about power cords...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I posted my opinion on the second page here, the skeptical case:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Remember you don’t need to rush things. All the upgrades will still be there later. Enjoy your system. Spend some time getting familiar with it’s...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Despite giving the opinion in a civil manner, just giving the reasons for skepticism was enough to have me banned from the thread.

Despite the fact that my post actually got the most "likes" in the thread (23) suggesting a significant number of that very forum's members share that viewpoint.

So basically, in forums like that, you can ask the question "Do power cables really matter" and you can give an opinion...but only if your answer is "Yes."

And it's the "objectivists" who these folks constantly accuse of close-minded dogmatism.

You should have told him that rather than buy power cables he should just go outside and stuff his money down the grid in the street. Might as well get hung for a sheep as a lamb.

 

[tmtomh]

Really?? That is a bit like a church outlawing discussion of science.

That sort of dogmatism is a really good reason for having nothing to do with them.

I don't disagree with you. I would say, though, that unlike some other sites that have severely restricted fact-based, scientific discussion (<cough>AudiophileStyle</cough>), the Hoffman forums are primarily about music and secondarily about gear, which is sort of the converse of most hi-fi sites.

Again, not defending or excusing their silly rule, and agree 100% that the woo-woo that goes on there is not good for people becoming properly informed. But there is actually a good deal of latitude when it comes to being able to say that power cables, interconnects, cable lifters, green markers, and so on are BS and don't do anything - the rule is narrowly written (and in general fairly narrowly enforced) to cover explicit debates about blind testing vs subjective listening.

Personally I don't find the silliness about gear and the science of sound reproduction to be the biggest problem there, as there are plenty of folks there who agree with us (at least generally). What I find the most problematic are the folks active in some of the really huge and popular CD music threads who consistently claim that certain CD pressings sound better than others when the digital data on the discs is identical (in other words, bit-for-bit identical digital production master but pressed at a multiple plants). Those folks can be challenged in certain threads, but there are others where they are allowed to basically say whatever they want. The "best-sounding" of these identical-in-reality pressings are of course almost always claimed to be the earliest pressing, or the rare and expensive Japanese pressing, and so on. To my eyes those discussions take on more of an uncontested religious-type feel than the discussions about gear and hardware.

At any rate, I personally have found a lot of value in the Hoffman forums, in the areas of discovering new music (or discovering older music I'd never bothered with before), and in terms of getting helpful info on different CD pressings that actually contain different masterings. I've lost count of the number of times folks have collectively contributed EAC peak levels for the particular pressings they own, which has enabled me and others to find the mastering we're seeking without having to pay through the nose for a particular pressing. These collective exercises also often end up piecing together interesting stories about the journeys certain digital masters must have taken around the world to end up as different pressings for different markets in different years.

So I take what's valuable from the Hoffman forums, generally ignore the BS, and occasionally speak up on behalf of the principles we believe in here. YMMV of course.

 

[MattHooper]

What a sad forum that is. I want to have a look but I’m hesitant because I read the Furutech NHF (or whatever) thread. It made me sad and angry somehow.

I actually like the forum. I have good conversations there. Especially about music. (But also in the gear forum).

It ain't perfect of course.

They sometimes disappear an entire thread if a couple people make reasonable posts they don't like.

That for me is by far the most infurating aspect of how that site is moderated. The fact that all sorts of people will contribute to a long thread, in which there may be some excellent discussion and info, and if someone makes the wrong move they often don't just lock the thread...they disappear the damned thing! Poof. That's the most insulting and unnecessary move to their members.

 

[Katji]

Sometimes I truly despair that in Humanity's most advanced, enlightened age we are still plagued by dogma and faith-related opposition to fact and reality. It's amazing that we ever came down from the trees really.....

The problem is not dogma and faith but thinking, logical reasoning. And "want to believe."
And bans from audiophile forums is an indicator of a typical "audiophile" mindset.

 

[StuartC]

The problem is not dogma and faith but thinking, logical reasoning. And "want to believe."
And bans from audiophile forums is an indicator of a typical "audiophile" mindset.

I suspect you actually mean "not thinking" and "illogical reasoning"

Plus if we're being pedantic, wanting to believe is another way of describing faith, but lets not go down the theological discussion rabbit-hole.... not least because it's against the rules.

Anyway, the point I was making is that fact and common-sense are easily overridden by humanity's desire to believe in something special or magical, simply because reality is dull and people yearn for something fantastic.

 

[Cote Dazur]

simply because reality is dull

Reality is anything but dull. Escaping reality, by any means, instead of fixing what needs to be fixed, is the path to a wasted life.
Magic and superstition are for children's.

 

[StuartC]

Escaping reality, by any means, instead of fixing what needs to be fixed, is the path to a wasted life.

I agree with you 100% there

 

[Sal1950]

I think it is the only forum I've ever been banned from.

Really, they still let you on WBF? LOL

 

[krabapple]

An interesting insight in to the dynamics of some audiophile forums...

Someone on SteveHoffmanForums posted a thread asking the question:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?​

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Alright, so I got XLRs for a balanced connection, I got 12 Gauge speaker wire, I plan on Bi- Wiring next... But what is this hubbub about power cords...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I posted my opinion on the second page here, the skeptical case:

Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Remember you don’t need to rush things. All the upgrades will still be there later. Enjoy your system. Spend some time getting familiar with it’s...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Despite giving the opinion in a civil manner, just giving the reasons for skepticism was enough to have me banned from the thread.

Despite the fact that my post actually got the most "likes" in the thread (23) suggesting a significant number of that very forum's members share that viewpoint.

So basically, in forums like that, you can ask the question "Do power cables really matter" and you can give an opinion...but only if your answer is "Yes."

And it's the "objectivists" who these folks constantly accuse of close-minded dogmatism.

The Hoffman forum is worthless except to provide bounteous material for ridicule, and for finding out which remasterings exist/might be better