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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

rdenney

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Was the test that Fremer reported applied to other testees? What was their outcome? Fremer might have heard a subtle artifact, the way Amir hears subtle artifacts.

Before it can advise buyers, though, it has to be something most people can detect and have a preference about.

Also, what was the hypothesis? A sounds better (or worse, or different) than B, or Michael Fremer has golden ears? Those are different tests.

Rick “wondering what battery of measurements were applied to the devices in question to explain the audible difference” Denney
 

MarkS

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Fremer anticipated your response: "There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy"

Which is why a response like yours is not useful in convincing subjectivists.

My response to Fremer: "That's amazing! Let's continue validating your golden ears! Please come back tomorrow for further tests!"
 

BluesDaddy

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Fremer anticipated your response: "There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy"

Which is why a response like yours is not useful in convincing subjectivists.

My response to Fremer: "That's amazing! Let's continue validating your golden ears! Please come back tomorrow for further tests!"
To which he would have said no and left with his assumed superiority intact.
 

MarkS

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Probably. When I subscribed to Sterophile long ago, the only blind tests they ever ran were of lower-price speakers!

I wonder if John Atkinson will ever reveal that he knew the truth all along ...
 

Raindog123

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Fremer anticipated your response: "There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy"

I think I am missing the point, can someone please straighten me up... In that far 1989, maybe there was audible difference between components in that blind test? Or are we saying that all amplifiers [properly leveled] always sound the same? Amplifiers (and their power supplies) do clip, distort - all this can be audible (while also measurable)?
 
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MarkS

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My personal opinion (held since 1979) is that all solid-state amplifiers designed according to accepted EE principles and operated below clipping sound identical.
 

liquidman101

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Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!
Hallelujah!!!
 

liquidman101

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Hallelujah!!!
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

A friend of mine always starts of his droll anecdotes with the phrase 'funny story'. So here's my 'funny story'.

Many many moons ago, when night clubs were called discos, I managed to purchase a Technics CD4 'discreet' system for way under the retail price. The store manager was a close friend of my brother, so instead of the usual $1200 I paid around $500. I'm talking around 1977 or so. A lot money for me then.

It was a moment of some excitement for me when the CD4 indicator would light up, signaling that the LP playing had been recorded in CD4 mode.

Over the decades a combination of too much drinking and too much gambling made sure that I couldn't afford those ultra expensive and glorious looking bits of kit that appear in the glossy hi-fi mags. Recently, I realised I actually can now afford to buy a system for between 4 and 5K. I thought, oh well, I won't be able to afford anything really good - but at least I'll get something that won't be totally embarrassing.

Trawling through websites, and magazines and articles was like diving into a huge bowl of mullagatawny soup mix with minestrone and with a few bricks on the bottom of the pot for you to bang your head against. I thought, this is ridiculous. How does anyone know what is good and what isn't? I knew that if I went into a retail store and said 'I'd like such and such speaker' the salesperson would no doubt say 'oh, great choice, but for a little bit more money you do much better!' And I'd be done like a dinner.

After luckily discovering ASR - it became clear that I could narrow down the vast field of choices by simply discarding anything that hasn't been independently and objectively assessed. And, I could probably with some judicious choices put together a very decent system for my 5K.

Thank the lord I found ASR - quite apart from the site being a great source of information - the members seems more than happy to help out those with less knowledge and experience in audio.

I will be making a contribution to keep the site going - although it won't be a large one- (see previous comment re: gambling) :)

thanks to all.



Then I found ASR.
 

solderdude

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I have the pleasure to add the 1445 post

1445


Nope it only says 1445 in your post. You just claim it is post 1445 while it is 1446. The number of your post is actually #1446. :D
@liquidman101 actually had the pleasure to make post #1445.
My post is actually #1447 and is just below yours but higher in number. We all know a higher SINAD is better so my post is objectively better as it has a higher number. You could make post #1448 which trumps my post number but so be it. We can't all have the the highest post # all of the time.
And what's worse is that while you can edit it to 1446 you cannot make it 1445 unless a post before you is deleted.
My reply quotes your post it is saying 1445 and you cannot edit my post but of course you can always claim you wrote 1146 and I edited your reply to 1445 but readers would have to trust me on this.
The screenshot below is further objective proof of what I perceived using my (flawed) eyesight.
Schermafdruk_2021-04-19_09-27-33.png


I figure the same thing happens in audio. Some claim they read 1445 and others 1446. Who was right and why ? Can it be proven in a blind test ?
 
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richard12511

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Tuning of audio signature will not affect either frequency response or phase or anything else, only the sound will be different so it can be easily used in conjunction with DSP to reach a higher quality level of the sound

???

How would it change the sound without changing "frequency response or phase or anything else"? So designers are just adding magic?

*Edit: After rereading that last sentence, I think I've been trolled :facepalm:
 

SIY

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My problem with the likes of Fremer reporting anything, is the lack of independent corroboration, so even if he claimed to have done 10x in a row, I wouldn't believe it.

Some years back, I asked one of the organizers about it and got an interesting response. Let's just say that in the absence of a score sheet turned in before the reveal, a self-reported 5/5 would not have much weight in any serious discussion.

Of course, if there's a hundred participants, it's likely that there would be several 5/5s even if the choices were random.
 

richard12511

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Michael Fremer claims that he was the only participant who passed a double-blind listening test that compared amplifiers, but was called a "lucky coin" by the organizers

A "Golden Ear" or a "Lucky Coin"?
Editor: I've been called many things in my job as an equipment and music reviewer, but "lucky coin" ("Letters," May 1989) is by far the most aggravating. I confronted David "all amplifiers sound the same" Clark at the June 1988 CES and told him that I could hear differences among amplifiers and, furthermore, that anyone who couldn't ought not be reviewing them. He countered that unless I could demonstrate my ability in a double-blind test, my assertion was groundless.

When he called a few months later asking if I'd organize a double-blind test at the AES, I jumped at the opportunity. I worked long and hard, with help from many people in the audio community, to set up a test that would satisfy the measurement freaks, and I believe we did. I took my own test just once (like every other participant) with David Clark in the room, and scored five out of five correct identifications. Not only did I correctly identify "same or different," I volunteered which amp was which and got that right four out of five times as well.

Good enough? No. Statistically insignificant, I was told by the dominant Dr. Stanley Lipshitz wing of the AES. "Lucky coin," I'm called by reader Dayton. There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy...—Michael Fremer,

Blind Listening Letters | Stereophile

Only 5/5? Why so little tests? Maybe he was really hearing a difference, but you're gonna have some "lucky coins" with only 5 trials.
 

Jimbob54

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???

How would it change the sound without changing "frequency response or phase or anything else"? So designers are just adding magic?

*Edit: After rereading that last sentence, I think I've been trolled :facepalm:

Yup
 

audiophile

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Only 5/5? Why so little tests?
This was the decision of the organizers. Everyone took 5 tests, including Michael Fremer.

Maybe he was really hearing a difference, but you're gonna have some "lucky coins" with only 5 trials.
Let's say there were 10 participants in these tests. Only one of them got 5 correct answers out of 5 and it was not some random guy, but Michael Fremer, who was claiming he can pass this test in the first place. What is the mathematical chance of this happening randomly? 1/320?
 
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