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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

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I'm sorry you feel that way - but the responses aren't really bad natured. They're just ... weary and exasperated. Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

The "demands" for "test labs in their living rooms" are a way of saying, no, you can't flap your arms and fly, because if you tried, you'd fail.

There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.

Again, anyone “weary and exasperated” needs to simply not respond.

Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do? Why is a new member asking an innocuous question or presenting an opinion not deserving of a tiny bit of patience?

I feel like this is a very important point to discuss, and wonder where @BDWoody and @amirm might stand? I simply cannot imagine this type of reaction to new members has any place here...
 

rdenney

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I'd guess that the vast majority of people who claim blind testing is invalid because it is stressful have never actually done one.

They just read that somewhere and decided that was a good reason to dismiss it.

if they had tried it they would realise how hard it can be to identify small but real differences, and they'd be a lot less sure of themselves and wouldn't make that argument in the first place...

The first paragraph is at odds with the third. It’s stressful precisely because the differences, if they are detectable at all, are subtle. Those who want to find a difference may feel more stress than those who don’t, but that is also a matter of prejudicial bias. Testees should always enter with the knowledge that A and B are different (even if they aren’t), so they put some effort into it.

Rick “always trying to detect the difference even when not expecting to” Denney
 

danadam

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Again, anyone “weary and exasperated” needs to simply not respond.

Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do?
My guess, because they have finally found a forum they like and they don't want it to change into one like most of the others on the Internet (i.e. full of nonsense). As @Inner Space already said:
There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.
 
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Mart68

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The first paragraph is at odds with the third. It’s stressful precisely because the differences, if they are detectable at all, are subtle. Those who want to find a difference may feel more stress than those who don’t, but that is also a matter of prejudicial bias. Testees should always enter with the knowledge that A and B are different (even if they aren’t), so they put some effort into it.

Rick “always trying to detect the difference even when not expecting to” Denney

No, the key to passing is to do a lot of practice, So you can focus in on the specific difference. If it's there then you'll hear it. If not you won't. There's no stress unless it has been brought in, - such as you've staked your reputation, or even worse, money on it.

If you are just participating out of academic interest in the outcome, there's no stress.

That's assuming it's a test for audibility. If you're just testing to see which device you prefer without the encumbrance of sighted bias, there's no stress at all and nothing specific to listen out for.
 

DonH56

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It's equally a problem when new members come in expressing beliefs and trying to convince us we are wrong without bothering to read or search for other posts/threads on the same subject. It's hard not to be jaded after the 1000th post telling us why wires matter and measurements don't and we just can't hear the difference for whatever reason. I think there is often too little tolerance for newcomers, but I was also brought up that it's bad manners to step into someone's house and immediately start criticizing the furniture (paint, yard...)
 
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My guess, because they have finally found a forum they like and they don't want it to change into one like most of the others on the Internet (i.e. full of nonsense).

As someone who has been a founding member of a few forums (different subject matters than this one), I will just say the forum will change as it grows; that is inevitable and is absolutely a good thing. What is not required to change are the values held by members.

And I would think the core values held in this forum include education and civility. The latter a prerequisite condition for the former.
 

TheBatsEar

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Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do? Why is a new member asking an innocuous question or presenting an opinion not deserving of a tiny bit of patience?

Because there is a constant stream of them. To be frankly, if you talk shite, and someone says you are talking shite to you, that someone has done you a good service.

I feel like this is a very important point to discuss, and wonder where @BDWoody and @amirm might stand? I simply cannot imagine this type of reaction to new members has any place here...

It doesn't happen if they don't talk shite. Besides, amirm or BDWoody aren't benevolent gods around here. If they talk shite, which happened and will happpen again, someone will tell them. As they have done to others mind you.
 

Harmonie

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Jimbob54

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Then stay out of the threads with new members.

Seriously, >90% of the issues I and others witness on this board would be solved immediately if people who cannot exercise patience would simply not get involved.

What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.
 

Racheski

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What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.
Obviously this marvel of modern engineering from Shanling. Just keep swapping the modules until you find that perfect organic, bloom-like sound.
1617484999145.png
 

Jimbob54

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Obviously this marvel of modern engineering from Shanling. Just keep swapping the modules until you find that perfect organic, bloom-like sound.
View attachment 121822

Ha! I posted something about that beast a while ago. I only looked at the pics and assumed it was a DAP- but no! Full desktop. I hope for those that buy, it is master of all trades and no Jack.
 
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Reminding you that the Op in this thread is not a new member.
You aren't exactly a "new member" either.

@FrantzM resumed it well in his post #1138
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...g-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/post-732512

I don’t see any issue in this particular thread; the very opposite, as the discussion unfolds. And I agree the advice linked would be the ideal way to go. Honestly, it‘s probably how most ppl approach the forum.

For those that don’t, just ignore what bothers you. Literally a click of the button. I‘m not invalidating the feelings of irritation; that’s a perfectly natural response and one clearly shared by many members.

I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

Maybe you haven’t realized, but ASR is often the top google search when looking for audio equipment measurements. It’s even ahead of Stereophile, which has been around for decades. And while there are subjects vastly more influential on the world than hobbyist home audio equipment, I kinda feel like ignoring the growth of this site and it’s influences would be missing the forest for the trees.
 
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What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.

Alt + ⬅️
 

Harmonie

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I don’t see any issue in this particular thread; the very opposite, as the discussion unfolds. And I agree the advice linked would be the ideal way to go. Honestly, it‘s probably how most ppl approach the forum.

For those that don’t, just ignore what bothers you. Literally a click of the button. I‘m not invalidating the feelings of irritation; that’s a perfectly natural response and one clearly shared by many members.

I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

Maybe you haven’t realized, but ASR is often the top google search when looking for audio equipment measurements. It’s even ahead of Stereophile, which has been around for decades. And while there are subjects vastly more influential on the world than hobbyist home audio equipment, I kinda feel like ignoring the growth of this site and it’s influences would be missing the forest for the trees.

My point is:
speech is silver, silence is golden
Before claiming being Golden eared, be a Golden listener and reader.

I do like the long time lurker who reads and is searching for threads and posts, before just posting for the first time, ignoring the rest of what has been posted elsewhere before.

ASR members spend a lot of efforts and time.
Some should learn and appreciate others knowledge and experience before just posting without a clue what surrounds them.
It's the posture (attitude) which makes the whole difference.
 
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KSTR

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Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?
No, this analogy doesn't hold. The equivalent would be "I dreamed at night that I can flap my arms and fly" -- which did happen in the dream, so a fact.
These people are reporting facts of their own personal perception (assuming there not making up the listening events they report) but the point is to repeatedly and in friendly manner explain them that facts of perception are not automatically hearing facts (those require (a) an underlying signal change and (b) a relevance of the signal change established in a DBT), whereas the perception facts don't need either.
 

KSTR

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I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.
Absolutely.
This forum quickly grew and has attracted some backseat drivers and some are real nags, which is unavoidable.
The point we must make here is that the bulk of this forum is not "anti" and not belittling the Golden Ears (in lack of a better term, not meant to be disparaging).
 

TheBatsEar

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The point we must make here is that the bulk of this forum is not "anti" and not belittling the Golden Ears (in lack of a better term, not meant to be disparaging).

Why must we make that point? What compels us to make that point? What can be gained by not saying BS when someone talks BS? Has that, so far, done anything bad at all? I don't think so. In fact, i think it is a good thing, correcting those that clearly are mistaken and harshly correcting those that are full of it.

And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

What is that value that increases if we stop marking nonsense as such? Harmony? For me the value is in the differentiation between BS and not BS.
 
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KSTR

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What can be gained by not saying BS when someone talks BS?
People posting their listening impressions don't talk BS. Their "problem" is the wrong association -- indoctrinated by the audiophile media and companies -- as to what caused it. Many of the Golden Ears are indeed open to that reasoning and willing to change their mindset (see @FrantzM) but you have to give them time and you have to act thoughtful so that are not pissed off right from the start.

Further, it is of no help to reduce all the many possible technical scenarios to the "nothing really matters in the end" stance. The typical backseat driver -- people with no real knowledge or experience in technical things -- comment of "decent cables/DAC/amp never make any differences whatsoever" simply does not reflect the truth in the real world. We have enough of that already in Germany at hifi-forum.de... and we have enough of the subjectivist stuff fueled at places like open-end-music.com and aktives-hoeren.de (both are infiltrated by manufacturers, both open and under-cover).

Finally, never underestimate the actual hearing capabilities of well-trained people and that does not exclude "prototype audiophiles". It is very humbling when you actually witness in real life that a person has way better hearing of what you thought were possible and can prove it in a BT.
 

PaulD

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Finally, never underestimate the actual hearing capabilities of well-trained people and that does not exclude "prototype audiophiles". It is very humbling when you actually witness in real life that a person has way better hearing of what you thought were possible and can prove it in a BT.

I strongly remember 20+ years ago playing with instrument computer synthesis algorithms and somone said something like, "It's very close, but there's something wrong around the 10th or 11th harmonic..." I was staggered that they could hear it then, and I'm still reporting it now. They were right! I could not hear it, but checking the maths and code proved the person right. Sadly I think this rarely happens in the audiophile world (who are mostly untrained).
 
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