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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

David Harper

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Not really, it should all be about me

I don't disagree but a number of the initial posts were directly to me. Then while your post doesn't tag me you are basically saying I'm stupid.....And while I have feelings I don't believe we have a right to not be offended. I'm pretty thick skinned and it seems my inability to not tell someone directly to their face what I'm thinking transfers to the keyboard. others might feel hesitant to share something we could all benefit from. I have directly benefitted from ASR sticking to measurements to a degree that makes me feel confident using the data here to make an informed selection but I think there's a subcult. I will call them,TSPLAOAR, Audio Science Review; The Self Proclaimed Leading Moral Authority On Audiophile Reviews. Can we post a sticky?
Didn't mean to say you're stupid. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't have anyone in mind. And this forum is a lot more civilized than some other ones I've been on. And I've had some stupid ideas too.
 

righthookmike

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Didn't mean to say you're stupid. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't have anyone in mind. And this forum is a lot more civilized than some other ones I've been on. And I've had some stupid ideas too.
I didn't take it seriously and I'll lighten up. this is really one of the best sites for getting meaningful insight on what each of us is trying to do. We could start a "what was your stupidest idea?" thread
 

David Harper

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"stupidest idea" would be an interesting thread only thing is I seem to have mastered the ability to permanently block out of my head those things which I cannot bear to remember.
 
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I don't think that's what most of the regular members here think.

We know that sound can be measured.

We don't always know how human physical hearing/the brain will interpret it.



You sort of missed the point where I said, "Meanwhile, why what someone perceives is different than measurements would indicate can often be explained by perceptual biases." All humans are prone to perceptual biases and other cognitive biases. When it is the most likely explanation, it should be treated as such until perceptual bias can be eliminated from the listening experience from the devices being compared.



I don't think that's an accurate way to look at it for a lot of people here. Rather it's more of a desire here to overcome perceptual biases and avoid being misled by audio equipment manufacturer hype which plays into perceptual biases, and so choose equipment with the highest audible fidelity. Or, at the very least, to always acknowledge the impact of perceptual biases even when we choose to go along with them.

That being said, there are certainly some people who are into the highest measuring gear. Much like a car enthusiast might want the highest output engine, even though their driving does not take advantage of it over other engines. However, I don't that means they don't care about sound/music. It's just a preference between different gear that all achieve the same level of audio fidelity.

Thanks for a well reasoned response. Just coming back to this as life has been busy.

Here’s my main issue, and I’m not talking about a DAC “sound signature” here, I’m speaking generally...

In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed. Add to that an inclination to attack a strawman instead of engaging in civil discourse. If you (again, general ”you”) want newcomers to see your side, don’t be a dick about it. Don’t be arrogant because you learned something before someone else.

If this is to be a *science* forum, I’d advise all members to practice the very foundation of science: open-mindedness. And maybe a sprinkle of civility and patience with others who found this forum a few months after you
 

ahofer

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In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed.
While in general agreement with you, and while I think many of the things you mention are common drawbacks of social media, ASR included, I differ a little on this point. The only wholesale rejection I see here is claims that are asserted as facts yet unsupported with evidence. People here are by and large OK with "I prefer", or "although I can't prove it, it sounded to me like" phrasing. They certainly do jump on "any trained listener can tell cables apart" or "there are vast and obvious differences between DACs", or my pet peeve "thousands of audiophiles hear a difference, that's my proof".

We should all have more humility in BOTH our responses AND our claims.

I just got into a familiar discussion on another forum (Harbeth User Group). I was saying that current audio showroom practices are pretty far from controlled experiments, and therefore poor at extracting audible differences. We were discussing how people tend to go for the last item auditioned, certain speaker cabinet finishes, etc., but all in the context of *influence*, not *dominant decision criterion.

A dealer responds:

So, people choose speakers based on colour and order of listening ? They totally ignore performance, sound , size, suitability for the system, suitability for the room etc ???

Absolute garbage. I'm out of this.

There's some quote I'm fishing for about public discourse like "It is impossible to express yourself clearly enough to avoid misinterpretation by some segment of the population". But better worded than that.
 

Jim Taylor

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There's some quote I'm fishing for about public discourse like "It is impossible to express yourself clearly enough to avoid misinterpretation by some segment of the population". But better worded than that.

How about; "It's impossible to express yourself and avoid having it twisted by some troll, somewhere." ? Jim
 

raistlin65

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Thanks for a well reasoned response. Just coming back to this as life has been busy.

Here’s my main issue, and I’m not talking about a DAC “sound signature” here, I’m speaking generally...

In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed.

If by "simply," you mean newcomers are replied to with the point that what they are saying is not supported by the science, then yes. But if you get involved with where people regularly help newcomers out, you'll also find they are often generous with explaining why.

Add to that an inclination to attack a strawman instead of engaging in civil discourse.

But it's OK to attack the whole forum with a strawman argument like this one???

And almost to the minute, someone posts something asinine on a ”science” forum implying:
(1) we know and can measure all there is about sound and human hearing

As I've already pointed out, that is not a commonly held belief in this forum.

If you (again, general ”you”) want newcomers to see your side, don’t be a dick about it. Don’t be arrogant because you learned something before someone else.

If this is to be a *science* forum, I’d advise all members to practice the very foundation of science: open-mindedness. And maybe a sprinkle of civility and patience with others who found this forum a few months after you

Undoubtedly, we almost all could make a little more effort toward civility. It is social media, after all, where we tend to sometimes act out more than we would in person.

However, I would suggest you do the same. Not very tactful to call your fellow forum members dicks and arrogant.
 

ahofer

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How about; "It's impossible to express yourself and avoid having it twisted by some troll, somewhere." ? Jim

he’s a super nice guy AFAICT, but he went off the rails a bit on that one. As we’ve experienced here: Most of us understand bias is implicit in humans and we can’t avoid it. But some folks haven’t encountered the research at all, find the idea profoundly disconcerting and sort of automatically view it as an insult. Especially if their business demands they claim otherwise.

Found the quote. It’s Karl Popper:



“Always remember that it is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood: there will always be some who misunderstand you.”
 
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The only wholesale rejection I see here is claims that are asserted as facts yet unsupported with evidence.

I agree, but many people simply coming to an audio hobbyist forum to discuss with others may not expect to be hammered by demands they set up a test lab in their living room. If they balk at that, the floodgates open on here and it certainly doesn’t appear entirely good-natured.

It doesn’t seem to be just me and a handful of folks posting in this thread ( and others across this board where you see a poster start a thread and it ends with them stating they won’t be back...) that notice this.

but I’ve said my piece, and I appreciate the response and alternate POVs.
 

GDK

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many people simply coming to an audio hobbyist forum to discuss with others may not expect to be hammered by demands they set up a test lab in their living room.
I agree, but I think that people posting without taking some time to get to know the community first is poor form.

It’s like walking into a stranger’s home, opening up their fridge and then complaining that they don’t have anything that you like to eat.o_O
 

Emlin

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I agree, but I think that people posting without taking some time to get to know the community first is poor form.

It’s like walking into a stranger’s home, opening up their fridge and then complaining that they don’t have anything that you like to eat.o_O

Worse than that, they tell you that they have somehow intuited that using the supplied mains cable is bad, even though the measured temperature is the same as that of their own fridge.
 

Inner Space

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I agree, but many people simply coming to an audio hobbyist forum to discuss with others may not expect to be hammered by demands they set up a test lab in their living room. If they balk at that, the floodgates open on here and it certainly doesn’t appear entirely good-natured.

I'm sorry you feel that way - but the responses aren't really bad natured. They're just ... weary and exasperated. Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

The "demands" for "test labs in their living rooms" are a way of saying, no, you can't flap your arms and fly, because if you tried, you'd fail.

There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.
 

sergeauckland

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I'm sorry you feel that way - but the responses aren't really bad natured. They're just ... weary and exasperated. Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

The "demands" for "test labs in their living rooms" are a way of saying, no, you can't flap your arms and fly, because if you tried, you'd fail.

There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.
It wasn't me, but I wish I had. Weary and exasperated is right, though.

I don't contribute to most other audio forums as their entire ethos is 'trust your ears, science doesn't know everything and all opinions are equally valid.'

What's the point of posting there? Similarly, unless somebody has a genuine query, which they have taken the trouble to investigate, and now would like some help with, there's no point posting their experiences of cable lifters here.



S
 

Jimbob54

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I'm sorry you feel that way - but the responses aren't really bad natured. They're just ... weary and exasperated. Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

The "demands" for "test labs in their living rooms" are a way of saying, no, you can't flap your arms and fly, because if you tried, you'd fail.

There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.

Yup- you can see little pockets of nonsense springing up even on ASR. One person says how (superflous) device X has transformed their listening- night and day differences. Someone else validates this view and within the page or 2 people are saying how they are going to order one to solve problems they never knew existed. Without wishing to sound like some kind of fascist- that kind of talk IMO should be challenged.
 

ahofer

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krabapple

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I've heard this objection a number of times. I think it is a more reasonable objection to the controls of double-blind than most others.There have been a number of tests that allowed listener's to take as much time as they like, and kept the observers out of the room to counteract that effect.

Every ABX anyone has ever done using the foobar plugin fits that description.
 

krabapple

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If someone does a DBT of two DACs that measure so accurate that they sound the same, but fails to properly volume level them and feels they sound different, you don't attribute it to a perceptual bias?


No. I'd attribute *preference* (typically for the louder one) to standard perceptual bias.
 

krabapple

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I envy you. Like quite a few others, I was driven to learning cognitive science/Kahneman et al. in the last few years through stress and desperation. I could not comprehend how 40% of the population appeared to me to be totally insane on quite a variety of topics. A lot of the craziness is amplified by social media silos and the pandemic. This all scared the bejesus, and made me feel quite stupid.

I understand it better now. Humans were not designed to be logical.

Humans were not designed, period. :)
 
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