Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yeah, exactly. I mean this place has a particular zeitgeist. If you come here with your heels firmly dug in to classic audiophile subjectivism and you aren't at all open to the possibility that some of your notions might be flawed (based on the general principles held high in this particular corner of the internets) well, things are likely gonna end unpleasantly.

I haven't really seen occasions though where people have been accused of "making things up." Unless of course they are claiming to have done blind tests and had an outcome that seems highly improbable/suspicious. I mean like I said at the outset...we've mostly all been there ourselves. I'm still there. I fall victim to the silly head games on a regular basis. I've actually gotten a little audio dopamine jolt from rotating the frikkin rca connectors on my amp a bit! lol...the little subjectivist whisper in my brain says "yeahhhhh, break up that oxidation there! That sounds better!" We all get that it's really difficult not to fall into that trap.

 

[anmpr1]

This points to how much this is all about the money. Excuse me for being cynical.

I don't think you are cynical at all. Always follow the money. Always. The only thing I'd add is what you left out. With reviewers it is usually not their money. How nice it must be to have a constant supply of new gear delivered. Long terms loans and such. And it wouldn't surprise me if the record companies were sending them product, gratis, in hopes of a mention.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

I think it's particularly difficult if we accuse people of making up their experiences. When a person subjectively experiences something, this experience is real, it's not made up. We know that the cause of this experience will not be differences between 2 equally well-measuring DACs, but that doesn't mean that it isn't real. Exploring where the cause lies is the interesting part!

Having said this, the issues on the E30 thread were really to do with a person wanting external validation for their subjective experience (i.e. other people to agree with them). This didn't happen and the person became abusive.

I think that avoiding insults or put downs (most of the time) is a useful way to try and prevent things escalating. The problem is that, on many occasions, subjectivists are not open to anything that we have to say. (As was shown on the E30 thread.)

I think we always need to be conscious that there is a small subset of people for who prodding the measurement worshippers is a constant source of entertainment. All too easy to confuse them with the legitimate new visitors as referred to in this thread. The recent E30 fiasco could be read either way with that in mind. Though the quickness with which the insults were hurled at staff suggests to me a frequent flyer. Common enquiries/ statements that could be either at inception:

Sonic signatures of DACs (amps too)
Bloody aftermarket power supplies
"Cleansing" thingies
"Chi-fi"

Oddly, cables dont seem to be as common a trigger.

 

[HorizonsEdge]

This thread is about a small segment of a much larger population that has come into the light in these trying times. They have always been there. I myself had thought that they were a true minority but I was so very wrong. At the risk of the ban-hammer I reveal to you my response to this plague.

 

[killdozzer]

@Sgt. Ear Ache man, you're good.

Your first post here hits the nail on the head on how a con works. I tried to explain this a thousand times, but people often like themselves too much to even accept this as a possibility.

Imagine a group of three people; one's a conman, one a buyer and one is a buyer's friend. Conman does a number on the buyer and the buyer believes him and buys, let's say, cable risers. Now, as soon as he gave his trust to the conman, he invested a huge amount of ego - he made a decision based on a con and any rectifying will ask of him to admit this.

Now the friend comes sad to see how the guy got conned and he tries to set him straight.

IMPORTANT: This is where we all make a mistake and expect something that is totally false, and totally contrary to human nature; we expect the conned guy to burst in laughter, to be happy, to thank his friend for correcting him and then he or the two of them will pay a visit to the conman and say fuck you buddy!!

But no!! Never! Conned guy has to admit directly or implicitly to being an idiot. He has to admit that even as a grown person he bought into such crap, he fell for the oldest, he got suckered with something as simple as fairy tales. He usually takes his friend's warning as demeaning, as an insult, he usually thinks "it is you who is trying to put it that I'm stupid, it's not the fact that I bought the cable risers, but it's you who is insulting me and implying I would fall for such crap" and the most important "how can you think so low of me".

And very often this ends in "we can't really be friends".

Furthermore, the conned person becomes the loudest, the fiercest DEFENDER of his conman. Conman rests comfortably while the conned fight his battle for him although with a different reason in their minds; they will endlessly fight the notion of being idiots and this will imply justifying the conman.

 

[egellings]

I see the light! The scales have fallen from my eyes, er, ears! No more fancy cables for me. I think that since brains interpret what the mics (ears) pick up, there's is some signal processing going on in there that has perception controls adjusted by our biases & emotional states. I have had my initial beliefs dashed by ABX tests more than once. I was simply unable to tell the difference between MIT Shotgun super interconnects and cheapies using that box. I was bereft, but sobered.

 

[a2lowvw]

This is beginning to sound like an AA meeting (Audiophile's Anonymous).

 

[Wes]

I'd rather have beryllium ears than golden ears

 

[Vasr]

This is beginning to sound like an AA meeting (Audiophile's Anonymous).

MA. Measuroholics Anonymous. Except not here to kick the habit. Kicking the subjectivists is the point.

 

[Robin L]

MA. Measuroholics Anonymous. Except not here to kick the habit. Kicking the subjectivists is the point.

See post 12.
I think I have 8 out of the 10 symptoms. Of course there's many more possibilities. I think a lot of people showed up here after they realized that a lot of things they were doing were behaviors akin to gambling, other varieties of pointless expense and other [expensive] cheap thrills. I spent 50 years chasing down vinyl, and now that I've opted out of all that, there's a weird freedom. There's still a few bugs in the system, but systems and bugs naturally attract each other. If I want to hear something, 99% I can find it somewhere on the internet, in as good a sound quality as I've encountered so far.

 

[ThatM1key]

Couple things to keep in mind there. First, "sounds better" is often a problematic concept. If one is accustomed to for instance the extra little bit of harmonic distortion some tube amps provide, one might feel that that tube amp "sounds better" then an amp that is providing perfectly clean amplification of the signal - and therefore doing it's job better than the tube amp. Now it's totally up to that person if he chooses to go with the tube sound, but it doesn't change the fact that the amp is essentially an effect pedal rather than just an amplifier. I've come to realize in my own audio journey that its worthwhile to challenge one's own preconceived preferences if those seem to lean towards inaccuracy. In other words, I've found that allowing a bit of time to "get used to" something that I know is actually the objectively better piece of gear pays off in the end.

Second, if the assessment of those amps wasn't done volume-matched and blind, it's suspect. I understand how annoying it is for that to constantly be re-iterated but it's simply the truth. Now there's nothing saying you wouldn't still pick the Sansui as your pref in a blind test, but it's pretty likely you wouldn't hear any difference at all. But without a good blind test...well, we're just slogging around in the muck again.

Now the fact of the matter is that setting up a good blind test situation is a chore. It isn't really an easy thing to do in most cases. But that doesn't change the reality that cognitive bias is an insidious factor in this realm. There's a way to get around it though. Instead of saying "I learned something on my audiophile journey. Just because something is rated better doesn't mean its gonna sound better, could even sound worse. (Ex: Me thinking a smsl sa300 would sound cleaner and better than my old sansui 2000a.)" which implies that there is something "wrong" or "unpleasant" about the smsl amp and that what your ears have told you is a correct impression, you could say "I bought an SMSL amp but even though it's rated better, I still preferred my old Sansui for some reason. Now I never did a blind test and it's entirely possible my ears are fooling me, but whatevs."

I did do a blind test. The smsl had less noise but it didn't sound warm, lack of bass in the lowend and overpowering midrange. The sansui had a nosier soundfloor but it sounded warm and low end bass. I AB tested them with my Polk S55's and my Elac Debut 2 6.2s. It took a long while but I made my choice.

 

[Robin L]

I did do a blind test. The smsl had less noise but it didn't sound warm, lack of bass in the lowend and overpowering midrange. The sansui had a nosier soundfloor but it sounded warm and low end bass. I AB tested them with my Polk S55's and my Elac Debut 2 6.2s. It took a long while but I made my choice.

Sounding "Warm" and otherwise elevated in the bass can be a sign of "doubling", essentially 2nd order harmonic distortion. Doubling is also a musical effect, one makes the bass line more powerful on the piano by simultaneously playing the note that's the same note in the bass, an octave down. If a pitch is, say, 40hz [low note on an electric bass, standard tuning], a lot of speakers do not reproduce a tone that deep. Add second order harmonic distortion, you're hearing 40hz and 80hz, and 80hz is a much easier pitch to reproduce.

 

[levimax]

I think humans tend to be lazy and "trusting your ears" is no more or less lazy than " trusting the graphs". The mantra repeated @ ASR that two components that measure the same will sound the same is an over simplification. My experience with ABX is that components that measure radically different can sound the same. This makes "chasing SINAD" no more or less useless than "trusting your ears". I believe there are some things that can be measured and reliably heard and if we really want to bridge the subjectivist / objectivist gap we should try to find common ground (like speakers maybe). Of course it is easier, lazier, and possibly more fun to just troll and insult each other

 

[Speedskater]

I think humans tend to be lazy and "trusting your ears" is no more or less lazy than " trusting the graphs".

While that well may be true, but audiophiles in general seldom "trust their ears". When it's suggested that they do ears only auditions, they find countless excuses for not doing so.

 

[bobbooo]

While that well may be true, but audiophiles in general seldom "trust their ears". When it's suggested that they do ears only auditions, they find countless excuses for not doing so.

Exactly, what they're actually trusting without question is a combination of their ears, eyes and brain, and the countless misleading cognitive biases the latter two introduce.

 

[levimax]

Exactly, what they're actually trusting without question is a combination of their ears, eyes and brain, and the countless misleading cognitive biases the latter two introduce.

I agree but few objectivists actually do listening tests either as they are "hard". It is much easier to purchase SINAD of 120 vs 110 and then armed with the knowledge of your wise scientific purchase never take the time to actually see if you can hear a difference. One thing though, I think the objectivist approach will tend to result is spending less money but it can also lead to weird and misleading "numerical comparisons" like JBL 305 has the same olive score as some Revel speaker which may cause some to miss out on enjoying better sounding equipment.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I did do a blind test. The smsl had less noise but it didn't sound warm, lack of bass in the lowend and overpowering midrange. The sansui had a nosier soundfloor but it sounded warm and low end bass. I AB tested them with my Polk S55's and my Elac Debut 2 6.2s. It took a long while but I made my choice.

Yeah, entirely possible. Do you have any measurements for the Sansui? Like I suggested, it's certainly possible for an amp to sound "different" from another amp. But if one of the amps measures neutral, and the other has a nice bass boost or some other inaccuracy then preferring it may be fine, but suggesting it is "better" really isn't...since it's doing a worse job of amplifying the signal without altering its sound characteristics. For many of us here at ASR, the preference is to achieve system neutrality and then if we do want to color the sound for some reason to use EQ.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I agree but few objectivists actually do listening tests either as they are "hard". It is much easier to purchase SINAD of 120 vs 110 and then armed with the knowledge of your wise scientific purchase never take the time to actually see if you can hear a difference. One thing though, I think the objectivist approach will tend to result is spending less money but it can also lead to weird and misleading "numerical comparisons" like JBL 305 has the same olive score as some Revel speaker which may cause some to miss out on enjoying better sounding equipment.

We may not all do listening tests for ourselves, but we take lots of interest in listening tests done by reputable researchers and virtually all of them back up the various notions we follow. All that's really necessary for someone to prove there's a benefit to for instance cable bridges is to show some measurements that look like anything potentially audible and to go ahead and do some public blind testing to prove it is audible.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I agree but few objectivists actually do listening tests either as they are "hard". It is much easier to purchase SINAD of 120 vs 110 and then armed with the knowledge of your wise scientific purchase never take the time to actually see if you can hear a difference. One thing though, I think the objectivist approach will tend to result is spending less money but it can also lead to weird and misleading "numerical comparisons" like JBL 305 has the same olive score as some Revel speaker which may cause some to miss out on enjoying better sounding equipment.

Nobody here would suggest anyone can hear a difference between 110 Sinad and 120.

 

[Oklei]

#8: There are scratch marks all over your floor from constantly re-positioning your heavy floorstanding speakers.

I don't understand how this one goes with the others. Other than buying a 10k$ DAC speaker positioning will make a huge difference which can easily make the sound too boomy or thin.