Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Aerith Gainsborough]

May not set you ‘free’ but will save you some $£€
Keith

Especially if you find this place before you start your audiophile journey.

Now I have a heap of cash and nothing to spend it on. (in terms of audio).

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Don't go overboard on the search for the best possible SINAD. There is one very knowledgeable member here who says 72db for the electronics chain is enough for nearly everyone, and 78db for a few. Same goes for speaker preference scores. A little EQ goes a long way.

So true. I mean if your system is pumping out SINADs in the 80db and up range you are good to go. No need for concern there. And I agree about speakers. One thing Amirm's excellent reviews have shown is that there truly are "audiophile quality" speakers available at every price point.

 

[LTig]

Especially if you find this place before you start your audiophile journey.

Now I have a heap of cash and nothing to spend it on. (in terms of audio).

I'm very sure @amirm would know better what to use it for.

 

[dfuller]

Don't go overboard on the search for the best possible SINAD. There is one very knowledgeable member here who says 72db for the electronics chain is enough for nearly everyone, and 78db for a few. Same goes for speaker preference scores. A little EQ goes a long way.

Honestly, any distortion or noise from a DAC or amp (unless dramatically broken or based on tubes) is going to be swamped by that from speakers. Staying under 1% THD on many speakers is quite the feat.

 

[Sukie]

Especially if you find this place before you start your audiophile journey.

Now I have a heap of cash and nothing to spend it on. (in terms of audio).

This rings true for me. I am eternally grateful that I came across this site when I did. I was never going to have lots of money available for a full headphone listening upgrade and so I thought I'd have to settle for an underperforming system. How wrong I was.

I hate to think of people wasting money that they haven't got, or money that could be spent on providing for their family and friends in these difficult times.

Of course people are free to spend their money on whatever they like, but at least this site gives them unbiased, rational and scientific assistance!

 

[JeffS7444]

I like it, but I think you underestimate how passionately some will cling to their world views: Such people want science to show why cables sound different, not "if", and they don't need a bunch of smartasses telling them their noble Voyage of Discovery was really just some self-indulgent twaddle.

 

[Wes]

Honestly, any distortion or noise from a DAC or amp (unless dramatically broken or based on tubes) is going to be swamped by that from speakers. Staying under 1% THD on many speakers is quite the feat.

But this assumes the different types of distortion are fungible, or at least that one obscures the other.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I like it, but I think you underestimate how passionately some will cling to their world views: Such people want science to show why cables sound different, not "if", and they don't need a bunch of smartasses telling them their noble Voyage of Discovery was really just some self-indulgent twaddle.

I think you over-estimate the impact I expect my creed to have.

although I will say I've definitely seen a few new-comers who started out a little rocky here but then after a bit of time totally came round to the new paradigm. So it does happen...

 

[raif71]

Before I'm completely converted, I'm gonna trust my ears

 

[JW001]

Don't go overboard on the search for the best possible SINAD. There is one very knowledgeable member here who says 72db for the electronics chain is enough for nearly everyone, and 78db for a few. Same goes for speaker preference scores. A little EQ goes a long way.

I'm not replacing my minidsp DDRC-24 with SHD!

 

[Sukie]

Before I'm completely converted, I'm gonna trust my ears

Naughty

 

[ThatM1key]

I learned something on my audiophile journey. Just because something is rated better doesn't mean its gonna sound better, could even sound worse. (Ex: Me thinking a smsl sa300 would sound cleaner and better than my old sansui 2000a.)

 

[FrantzM]

I like it, but I think you underestimate how passionately some will cling to their world views: Such people want science to show why cables sound different, not "if", and they don't need a bunch of smartasses telling them their noble Voyage of Discovery was really just some self-indulgent twaddle.

Especially when the pack mentality sets in. I have seen people who should have been convinced by blind tests revert to their "audiophiles" behavior and tendencies after a few weeks of re-exposure...

 

[PatriciaP]

I learned something on my audiophile journey. Just because something is rated better doesn't mean its gonna sound better, could even sound worse. (Ex: Me thinking a smsl sa300 would sound cleaner and better than my old sansui 2000a.)

The scientific assessment method makes one change at a time. You have a good class A amplifier in a system optimised for it, and the class D doesn't match apparently. Is this a fault of the amplifier or does class D need a matched system?

 

[bloodshoteyed]

It's a manifesto!

don't those lately tend to end in some kind of mass shooting?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Honestly, any distortion or noise from a DAC or amp (unless dramatically broken or based on tubes) is going to be swamped by that from speakers. Staying under 1% THD on many speakers is quite the feat.

We've gotten reviews of speakers that can stay under 1% for everything above 200 hz.

One thing I've wondered is when some upstream distortion can additively combine with speaker distortion. So that perhaps a speaker at .9 % 3rd harmonic THD gets another .5% 3rd harmonic THD upstream and this tips over into a region we hear vs a region below 1% we didn't. We think we just heard .3 % distortion but in fact heard 1.4% finally crossing a threshold. This example is purely an example not that the numbers are exactly correct.

Now distortion doesn't add up like this very often. Looking at REW using sine waves where it shows distortions levels for each harmonic and its phase is instructive.

 

[Deleted member 18309]

I agree with what OP says and the general ideas of this forum, but sometimes I can't help but notice that fellow members come across as needlessly condescending, which provokes said subjectivists. I mean, as OP says in his post, they have known nothing all their lives except their audio myths. I don't think they'll be too receptive of posts which seem to insinuate (whether intended or not) that they are idiots who should go get educated.

I think a little bit of patience and kindness could go a long way. I mean, as an example, think of it as trying win over someone to your (possibly controversial) beliefs, be it religion or politics etc. Would you do it by mocking or belittling the other party's beliefs on the relevant matter? No, you would patiently as possible explain why your belief makes sense, and ask them to reflect on theirs. In the many recent forum posts where I have seen hardcore subjectivists get into arguments with members, I feel that it could have gone differently if the initial exchanges were a little less blunt and/or provocative.

Of course not everyone here posts in a condescending or rude manner, but there are definitely enough that I have noticed and feel like it might need to be addressed. Feel free to share your thoughts on this.

 

[Robin L]

In the many recent forum posts where I have seen hardcore subjectivists get into arguments with members, I feel that it could have gone differently if the initial exchanges were a little less blunt and/or provocative.

Thing is, the initial responses are polite enough, but subjectivists usually go back to talking points that have already been disproven. When it comes to LPs and all things related to LPs I do get mighty dismissive, but seeing the sudden resurgence of a "broken" format has raised my hackles. I've settled down a bit as of late, but the thought of such a regressive move becoming mainstream makes me even more reactive. Mikey already has a "Planet "of his own, why is it that his promotions of LPs and turntables [that can cost more than a house] are seeing more space on his "Corner" at Stereophile? This points to how much this is all about the money. Excuse me for being cynical.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I learned something on my audiophile journey. Just because something is rated better doesn't mean its gonna sound better, could even sound worse. (Ex: Me thinking a smsl sa300 would sound cleaner and better than my old sansui 2000a.)

Couple things to keep in mind there. First, "sounds better" is often a problematic concept. If one is accustomed to for instance the extra little bit of harmonic distortion some tube amps provide, one might feel that that tube amp "sounds better" then an amp that is providing perfectly clean amplification of the signal - and therefore doing it's job better than the tube amp. Now it's totally up to that person if he chooses to go with the tube sound, but it doesn't change the fact that the amp is essentially an effect pedal rather than just an amplifier. I've come to realize in my own audio journey that its worthwhile to challenge one's own preconceived preferences if those seem to lean towards inaccuracy. In other words, I've found that allowing a bit of time to "get used to" something that I know is actually the objectively better piece of gear pays off in the end.

Second, if the assessment of those amps wasn't done volume-matched and blind, it's suspect. I understand how annoying it is for that to constantly be re-iterated but it's simply the truth. Now there's nothing saying you wouldn't still pick the Sansui as your pref in a blind test, but it's pretty likely you wouldn't hear any difference at all. But without a good blind test...well, we're just slogging around in the muck again.

Now the fact of the matter is that setting up a good blind test situation is a chore. It isn't really an easy thing to do in most cases. But that doesn't change the reality that cognitive bias is an insidious factor in this realm. There's a way to get around it though. Instead of saying "I learned something on my audiophile journey. Just because something is rated better doesn't mean its gonna sound better, could even sound worse. (Ex: Me thinking a smsl sa300 would sound cleaner and better than my old sansui 2000a.)" which implies that there is something "wrong" or "unpleasant" about the smsl amp and that what your ears have told you is a correct impression, you could say "I bought an SMSL amp but even though it's rated better, I still preferred my old Sansui for some reason. Now I never did a blind test and it's entirely possible my ears are fooling me, but whatevs."

 

[Sukie]

I agree with what OP says and the general ideas of this forum, but sometimes I can't help but notice that fellow members come across as needlessly condescending, which provokes said subjectivists. I mean, as OP says in his post, they have known nothing all their lives except their audio myths. I don't think they'll be too receptive of posts which seem to insinuate (whether intended or not) that they are idiots who should go get educated.

I think it's particularly difficult if we accuse people of making up their experiences. When a person subjectively experiences something, this experience is real, it's not made up. We know that the cause of this experience will not be differences between 2 equally well-measuring DACs, but that doesn't mean that it isn't real. Exploring where the cause lies is the interesting part!

Having said this, the issues on the E30 thread were really to do with a person wanting external validation for their subjective experience (i.e. other people to agree with them). This didn't happen and the person became abusive.

I think that avoiding insults or put downs (most of the time) is a useful way to try and prevent things escalating. The problem is that, on many occasions, subjectivists are not open to anything that we have to say. (As was shown on the E30 thread.)