Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Keith_W]

I think this discussion is bothering people because we're mixing up a lot of concepts here.

ASR relies on the science: both about the electrical engineering and the human biological psychoacoustic factors.

The basic philosophy behind ASR is that (all else held equal) more accurate gear is better. Accurate means the output is as close as possible to the input. This applies to electronics - amps, dacs, streamers, etc.

When it comes to speakers and headphones, Amir and most ASR readers go with the Toole research that says even directivity and a mostly flat FR are generally preferred, it's also arguable that counts as 'accurate'.

However, that is where subjectivity comes into play. Some people don't like a flat response. That's okay. Some people like very wide or even dipole / OB dispersion, some like narrower. That's also okay. Opinions and subjectivity are absolutely fine at ASR.

When it comes to liking or disliking certain MUSIC, we are open to all opinions, no matter how weird. Some people even like Diana Krall here.

What is not fine is asserting that "XYZ makes a difference" without measurements, especially when XYZ is something that is (based on science) known to almost never make a difference. "I heard it, therefore it's real" doesn't fly here, that's all.

Well said! Many people think that ASR has no room for subjectivity. That is totally untrue, ASR is about knowing where to be objective, and knowing where to be subjective, and trying to explain why our subjective preferences might be the way they are.

 

[kemmler3D]

Well said! Many people think that ASR has no room for subjectivity. That is totally untrue, ASR is about knowing where to be objective, and knowing where to be subjective, and trying to explain why our subjective preferences might be the way they are.

I should also say, there's also room for people who don't think more accurate gear is better, and actually prefer distortion of some kind. Contrary to popular belief we don't hound tube lovers out of here, we don't even look down on tubes really. It's just that even if you listen using tubes, you still need to discuss the tube sound objectively.

On ASR what's interesting about tubes is not someone's nicely written essay about how listening to them made them feel. It's learning about how much and what kind of distortion makes them sound good to them.

 

[SIY]

I believe it was Alvarado, in "High School Madness", who shouted out---"That's metaphysically absurd! How can I know what You hear?"

Raw, raw, raw, that's the spirits we have around here.

 

[DonR]

Raw, raw, raw, that's the spirits we have around here.

I'll drink to that!

 

[Gringoaudio1]

I'll drink to that!

I need a drink! That was the weirdest trolling we have had in memory. I thought he was being funny at first then realized that lunacy was to follow.

 

[antcollinet]

Sure you can. It’s done all the time by Audiologists and has been studied to considerable extent by Drs. Toole’s and Olive. But I get it you didn’t come here to learn you came here to troll. We have seen enough of your responses now and don’t need to prolong the process. Bye bye now….

And there we go - Late to this part of the thread - I was about to respond to his 3rd or 4th post a few pages back. Then I realised he wasn't going to last to the end of the thread so didn't bother.

They are pretty easy to spot - normally by the antagonistic and insulting approach - right at the start.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The frustrating thing is that he did make one enlightened point, that due to a high RF field a cable with a better shield and ferrite filter made a difference, which I think is quite feasible.

Personally, I think cable changes can have audible effects beyond placebo but where scientific reproducibility is challenging - namely contact oxidation/migration over time. Removing the contamination by just unplugging and replugging can make a difference, but it's difficult to develop a viable, non-laboratory method to measure the effect.

 

[antcollinet]

The frustrating thing is that he did make one enlightened point, that due to a high RF field a cable with a better shield and ferrite filter made a difference, which I think is quite feasible.

Personally, I think cable changes can have audible effects beyond placebo but where scientific reproducibility is challenging - namely contact oxidation/migration over time. Removing the contamination by just unplugging and replugging can make a difference, but it's difficult to develop a viable, non-laboratory method to measure the effect.

I'm not sure how shielding from an RF field (in the GHz range) can make an audible difference unless there is horrendous noise/distortion being caused. Especially with a sub. Ie if the amp is being destabilised or something - though I'm not sure what the mechanism would be even for that. (And I'm pretty sure that is not what he was describing - micro timing FFS)

Certainly GHz noise superimposed on audio isn't going to get through to the driver in any way that is going to influence its movement - micro timing or not.

 

[Sal1950]

The frustrating thing is that he did make one enlightened point, that due to a high RF field a cable with a better shield and ferrite filter made a difference, which I think is quite feasible.

Personally, I think cable changes can have audible effects beyond placebo but where scientific reproducibility is challenging - namely contact oxidation/migration over time. Removing the contamination by just unplugging and replugging can make a difference, but it's difficult to develop a viable, non-laboratory method to measure the effect.

If it can be heard, the reason can be easily measured, and the science of why has been well known for many decades.
There are no magical properties in wire.

 

[sergeauckland]

Nothing wrong in faith, you can't measure what another person hears.

There's everything wrong with faith. Belief without evidence. It's the main reason for all the Wars of Religion, going back to the Dark Ages. Until mankind stops believing in the unproven, or unprovable, it'll go on for another 1000 years.

If that sounds a bit pretentious, look at any audio forum and the cable threads or the 'I heard it so it's true' statements.

S

 

[Bridges]

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set yo

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

You are saying R2R Dacs sound exactly the same as delta Sigma dacs?

 

[Soria Moria]

You are saying R2R Dacs sound exactly the same as delta Sigma dacs?

All DACs sound the same if the measurements indicate that they should and if they aren't broken.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I need a drink! That was the weirdest trolling we have had in memory. I thought he was being funny at first then realized that lunacy was to follow.

… and usually the next troll isn’t far behind…. Let’s see

 

[Newman]

Then I realised he wasn't going to last to the end of the thread so didn't bother.

To be fair…nobody lasts to the end of an endless thread…

 

[MaxwellsEq]

If it can be heard, the reason can be easily measured, and the science of why has been well known for many decades.
There are no magical properties in wire.

Yes I agree. There's no magical property in wire or connectors.

What I obviously wasn't clear about is that I was talking about the degradation over time of electrical contacts due to humidity, contamination etc. There is plenty of scientific research in this area (mainly to do with degradation of switching contacts) and lots of measurements.

In a large studio with hundreds of patch cables and "break" sockets, contamination over longish periods can lead to noise and faults. This is quite common, and often a re-plug fixes the issue for a further period, but if not, cleaning the contacts resolved the problem. The point I was making above is - this effect would be difficult to setup as an experiment outside of a lab where contamination can be controlled. The change in resistance, and any semi-conduction impact is likely to require sensitive measurement gear and no-one has the time or patience to do this.

Many of us here assume that reported cable sound differences are due to cognitive biases or placebo. But I also think that there's a beneficial consequence of just unplugging the first cable and plugging in the second. A proper experiment would have three facets: 1) a test with the current cables in after being undisturbed for several months; 2) a test with the same cables after contact cleaning or just re-plugging; 3) a test with the new cables. Skipping the 2nd test is where the process is flawed.

 

[fpitas]

I need a drink! That was the weirdest trolling we have had in memory. I thought he was being funny at first then realized that lunacy was to follow.

I'm still not entirely sure. He even messaged me with some bizarre questions.

 

[fpitas]

the degradation over time of electrical contacts due to humidity, contamination etc.

I've been on a soapbox for a long time in favor of better speaker wire connections.

 

[killdozzer]

"The mind is a terrible thing"

Do any of you ASR members like anything about your biology? Is this thread spawned by hate and ignorance to the biology equation, you know, the thing that listens to the music?

I like touching some parts... I'm glad you asked, never thought anyone would care. Nice to see you joined October this year to tell us to trust our ears. We honestly never had that so far.

 

[killdozzer]

But that is exactly the point. Sub for ear hole - "individual brain interpretation". That's why we focus on the sound specifically coming out of the electronics, not what some guy on the internet thinks he hears.
Everyone's brain is wired differently, everyone's listening space is different, so I don't care what someone's interpretation of what they think they are hearing is, after its crossed their room, entered their ear holes, and then interpreted by their brain. I want to know what is coming out before that happens, so I can then adjust to my room and taste as I see fit.
Standardized and accurate measurements lets us make comparisons of apples to apples that is applicable to everyone.

I'd like to add to what you said, I don't think even the "unique ear-key-hole" bears truth. We're the result of evolution, imagine if one's unique key-hole-ear enjoyed loud roars... You'd be out of the gene-pool. I think tastes are based in culture, not the shape of our ears. I do agree that older people crank up highs, that's expected every now and then, but I doubt it shapes tastes.

 

[fpitas]

I do agree that older people crank up highs

Not all of us! I EQ mine flat as a board. Can't stand it any other way.