Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Piggyback41]

Prove it.

Come to my house then lol. I don't have the tools to prove it. There's plenty of people who invite others to do the same.

 

[Jimster480]

Nothing of the sort.

ASR is just a forum where, if someone says they saw Bigfoot, we demand good photographic evidence and won't take no for an answer.

On some forums they will not ask for photos, they'll take your word for it. They ask you what kind of conversation you had with Bigfoot, what he smelled like, whether he likes Taylor Swift or not. The guy demanding photos gets banned. ASR is the antidote to that kind of forum, but for some people the cure is worse than the disease.

More specifically there are collections of papers on pyschoacoustics here, we certainly appreciate the influence of the wrinkly ear. In fact, to @dkinric's point, that is why measurements are 100x more important than subjective reports. Subjective reviews are available everywhere you look and some of us read them. But that's not why ASR is here.

The biggest factor is that in other parts of the audiophile world, placebo / expectation bias is completely unappreciated. This is a major factor in the "biology equation". What people hear does not always correspond to what comes out of the equipment. It OFTEN doesn't. Failing to acknowledge and account for that causes all kinds of problems. We take pains to avoid those problems here.

I totally agree here. Most of the internet allows for subjective nonsense to fill every aspect of conversation.
Here we ask for receipts.

 

[krabapple]

That's funny, your ears do that...

Ears do accommodate to lots of things, but they aren't superheroes. After accommodation an A/B of 'colored' to 'minimized' will still reveal the audible difference.

Coloration comes from speakers and the rooms. "Auditioning" amps and cables and DACs for 'coloration' is cargo cult behavior...unless one is of the strange tribe that seeks out intentionally 'colored' amps and cables and DACs...whose 'colorations' i.e., deviations from transparency, are, of course, entirely measurable, so what was your point again about biology? Teach me, I've only got a PhD in the subject.

Not true. Under certain conditions cable changes are not imaginary.

Yes, when one is broken/unfit for purpose and the other is not. Or one has been purposely throttled with a filter to make it a 'high end' product. Are you a fan of such 'conditions'?

More fundamentally: have you a clue about the varieties and effects of perceptual/cognitive biases on evaluating audio difference?

 

[dkinric]

What about science that backs up some of this subjectivity? I'm sure there must be some science out there backing that up. My cable change on my subwoofer was and still is very audible, volumes the same (on AVR), same songs, same gain on the subwoofer. This new cable is shielded to high frequencies and I have 2mW/m2 1.8ghz signals at the cable from the cell tower near me, that's already billions of times higher than normal natural background microwave levels, I believe QED when they talk about micro timing caused by RFI. It's not just about the cable, it's also how the cable serves the components it's attached to.

Weird, yes, it's like they want to be robots. I really do think ASR has many of them. They can do what they want, but dismissing subjectivity like some religious cult is indeed bonkers in itself.

I'm not extreme, I don't dismiss measurements, I will search hard to find measurements that back up my subjective experiences, if there is no proof after hard searching... it will make me wonder... but maybe there's no measurements for it yet. Of course, I'm against kidding myself as well.

For me, audio science is interesting, when it confirms subjectivity.

Sean Olive / Harman did experiments on exactly that - it's where we get the Harman curve. They found that the majority of people prefer a basically flat FR sound (blind tests, controlled conditions). So, that is the goal for starters to get equipment that can reproduce that (with minimal noise and distortion). THEN you can adjust to taste / room (ie DSP or EQ). At least you are eliminating variables that you cannot control (poorly measuring equipment).

It's not that biology and subjective impressions are not considered part of the process. It's that they are not relevant unless they are yours.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Science should explain subjectivity not ignore it.

When subjectivity supports positions that science has previously proved untenable, then scientific support for subjectivity is tantamount to support for unicorns, Bigfoot and aliens.

Yes, some people believe in unicorns, Bigfoot and aliens. That doesn't mean that they exist. Simply put, belief is not proof.

Jim

 

[DonR]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Sagan Standard

 

[DVDdoug]

I had a Ruby that sounded different but it was a phono cable with a DIN connector on it and I chopped that off and mounted some MIT RCA ends. It sounded brighter but it was virtually the same as any other cable I compared it to.

Without measurements or a proper blind ABX test, I'll simply chalk that up to the (very common) placebo effect.

If you can actually hear a difference in a blind listening test, or if something shows-up in the measurements it might be interesting to figure-out why you are getting unusual and unexpected results.

I think the cable sounded different because it was for intended for phono use.

The opposite would be more likely. Phono cartridges are affected by cable capacitance, and the high impedance combined with high-gain makes shielding more important. At "normal lengths" and other "normal conditions" line-level signals are not affected by capacitance.

 

[krabapple]

And that's the words I need to hear. I agree with this. A bit of everything, of course.

Listen and judge however you like. But please refrain from coming on a forum called Audio Science Review to trumpet how important and dispositive your subjective judgements are. They aren't.

ASR is about audio SCIENCE (that is what is in the name anyway), the biology is a part of the audio equation. For subjectivity to be nearly worthless is insultive, since subjectivity comes from biology.

Science should explain subjectivity not ignore it.

Fortunately, the likes of you don't get to tell Science what to do.

Science demands controls to test subjective reports. Because Science knows subjectivity is very, very fallible.

 

[thegeton]

Come to my house then lol. I don't have the tools to prove it. There's plenty of people who invite others to do the same.

 

[thecheapseats]

When subjectivity supports positions that science has previously proved untenable, then scientific support for subjectivity is tantamount to support for unicorns, Bigfoot and aliens.

Yes, some people believe in unicorns, Bigfoot and aliens... That doesn't mean that they exist. Simply put, belief is not proof.

Jim

praying for surf - bfoot ucorns and aliuns..

 

[Doodski]

Without measurements or a proper blind ABX test, I'll simply chalk that up to the (very common) placebo effect.

I do the same. I frequency swept the cable(s) for frequency response and found no difference from the usual cables and my mates thought I was losing my mind and they might be right but I'm sure it sounded like it had more sharp highs. I was not subjective at the time and was also not using the best metering methodology because my lab was not setup for cable metering because it was setup as a general purpose troubleshooting and mechatronics calibration lab.

The opposite would be more likely. Phono cartridges are affected by cable capacitance, and the high impedance combined with high-gain makes shielding more important. At "normal lengths" and other "normal conditions" line-level signals are not affected by capacitance.

Hmmz. So any excessive capacitance reactance would show in the very high frequency out of hearing range stuff? (Is there excess inductance in phono cables too?) Do phono cables have extra capacitance. I never got into phono cable setup or capacitance adjustments with any of my turntables so this is all new stuff for me.

 

[krabapple]

Come to my house then lol.

Under what bridge would that be?

 

[krabapple]

Sean Olive / Harman did experiments on exactly that - it's where we get the Harman curve. They found that the majority of people prefer a basically flat FR sound (blind tests, controlled conditions). So, that is the goal for starters to get equipment that can reproduce that (with minimal noise and distortion). THEN you can adjust to taste / room (ie DSP or EQ). At least you are eliminating variables that you cannot control (poorly measuring equipment).

It's not that biology and subjective impressions are not considered part of the process. It's that they are not relevant unless they are yours.

THERE MUST BE SOME SCIENCE OUT THERE THAT VALIDATES MY FEELINGS.

 

[Piggyback41]

to trumpet how important and dispositive your subjective judgements are. They aren't.

Nor is measurements

 

[Piggyback41]

Fortunately, the likes of you don't get to tell Science what to do.

Nah you're right, dull people are attracted to dull science. They won't naturally pursue colourful interesting science, it reminds them too much of their bullies in high school, and urggghhh emotions are so illogical! and love is just oxytocin. Lol.

 

[krabapple]

Nor is measurements

They isn't?

 

[krabapple]

Nah you're right, dull people are attracted to dull science.

Dull people consistently miss the point.

They won't naturally pursue colourful interesting science, it reminds them too much of their bullies in high school, and urggghhh emotions are so illogical! and love is just oxytocin. Lo

This looks to be about your speed

 

[Piggyback41]

They isn't?

You have preferences different to others? Care to print them measurements out your mouth?

 

[Piggyback41]

This looks to be about your speed

What's your speed, get the signal from A to B and call it quits? Lol. Please.

 

[Killingbeans]

That's called auditioning audio gear, not all audio gear is perfectly neutral.

You are preaching to the choir.

OP is talking about gear and components that has no physical mechanisms to neither add nor subtract to the coloration.

None of us have any problems with "taste testing" of gear that has actual coloration. What grinds our gears is when the coloration itself or the cause of it is highly at risk of being pure make believe, but is being presented as factual.

The "magic" of burn-in is overwhelmingly highly at risk of being caused by nothing but brain plasticity, and it would take some extremely hard hitting evidence to change those odds. That's just the way it is.