Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Anton S]

The Hoffman forum is worthless except to provide bounteous material for ridicule, and for finding out which remasterings exist/might be bet

Let them have their special place...lol. If they really want to be into cables they are going to do it no matter what anybody suggests or says to them. Boggles the mind but it is what it is.

Analogous to many aspects of American politics these days. It's impossible to overcome an irrational and unfounded belief with a rational rebuttal.

 

[MattHooper]

The Hoffman forum is worthless except to provide bounteous material for ridicule, and for finding out which remasterings exist/might be better

That depends on what you are looking for, of course. A tool is only good if you have use for it.

I have found lots of worthwhile information on the Hoffman forums for my purposes. For instance there's an excellent long Degritter record cleaning machine thread with all sorts of interesting info and sharing of results, experience, tips etc. There are threads on certain music groups that I like that are rich with information and even as a place to share enthusiasm it is deeply "worthwhile." I've also enjoyed various exchanges on some audio equipment.

 

[Raindog123]

 

[sergeauckland]

That parable is also known as:-
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

Something I've learnt over the years, especially in connection with cable threads.

S

 

[krabapple]

So, where's the lions here?

 

[Raindog123]

So, where's the lions here?

Those who can "punish you with three days of silence..."? [But usually don't ]

 

[sofrep811]

The Hoffman forum is worthless except to provide bounteous material for ridicule, and for finding out which remasterings exist/might be better

That's being kind. You with StereoCentral?

 

[deniall83]

I don't disagree with you. I would say, though, that unlike some other sites that have severely restricted fact-based, scientific discussion (<cough>AudiophileStyle</cough>), the Hoffman forums are primarily about music and secondarily about gear, which is sort of the converse of most hi-fi sites.

Again, not defending or excusing their silly rule, and agree 100% that the woo-woo that goes on there is not good for people becoming properly informed. But there is actually a good deal of latitude when it comes to being able to say that power cables, interconnects, cable lifters, green markers, and so on are BS and don't do anything - the rule is narrowly written (and in general fairly narrowly enforced) to cover explicit debates about blind testing vs subjective listening.

Personally I don't find the silliness about gear and the science of sound reproduction to be the biggest problem there, as there are plenty of folks there who agree with us (at least generally). What I find the most problematic are the folks active in some of the really huge and popular CD music threads who consistently claim that certain CD pressings sound better than others when the digital data on the discs is identical (in other words, bit-for-bit identical digital production master but pressed at a multiple plants). Those folks can be challenged in certain threads, but there are others where they are allowed to basically say whatever they want. The "best-sounding" of these identical-in-reality pressings are of course almost always claimed to be the earliest pressing, or the rare and expensive Japanese pressing, and so on. To my eyes those discussions take on more of an uncontested religious-type feel than the discussions about gear and hardware.

At any rate, I personally have found a lot of value in the Hoffman forums, in the areas of discovering new music (or discovering older music I'd never bothered with before), and in terms of getting helpful info on different CD pressings that actually contain different masterings. I've lost count of the number of times folks have collectively contributed EAC peak levels for the particular pressings they own, which has enabled me and others to find the mastering we're seeking without having to pay through the nose for a particular pressing. These collective exercises also often end up piecing together interesting stories about the journeys certain digital masters must have taken around the world to end up as different pressings for different markets in different years.

So I take what's valuable from the Hoffman forums, generally ignore the BS, and occasionally speak up on behalf of the principles we believe in here. YMMV of course.

Thanks for the great post. I've often wondered this as well. As someone who's a little obsessed with finding the definitive version of all my favourite albums, I regularly search through SH to find the recommendations. It's does appear strange that there can be seemingly identical versions of album yet they claim there are significant sonic differences. I'd love you to send me a PM with some examples if you don't mind.

 

[Jaxjax]

I actually like the forum. I have good conversations there. Especially about music. (But also in the gear forum).

It ain't perfect of course.



That for me is by far the most infurating aspect of how that site is moderated. The fact that all sorts of people will contribute to a long thread, in which there may be some excellent discussion and info, and if someone makes the wrong move they often don't just lock the thread...they disappear the damned thing! Poof. That's the most insulting and unnecessary move to their members.

I enjoy those 2- forums at SHF just as much as lurking @ ASR. ASR is a buzz kill sometimes because some get caught up in the if it measures perfect it must be....I like measurements too & certainly could care less about expensive cables unless Magomi & ProCo is consider voodoo here, but I also can't stand Genelec anything or anything else with Beryllium, Titanium, Aluminium, tweeters. I much prefer active Dynaudio & ATC. I can enjoy records just as much as digital or even tape for that matter. I'm actually going to build a 3rd system in a spare room that is completely vintage where I can run all my tuners, tape decks & older TT's. & I already know it will be just as enjoyable is my DSP active main rig. My bedroom system is just as enjoyable & awesome as my main & 20x cheaper too. An old pair of Audio Physics w/ cheap Peerless HDS drivers couldn't sound good w/ a cheap old Yamaha pro amp could it... Sounds amazing to me & could care less who would think it wouldn't. I do audio forums to because that is where the gear & music freaks are, just like me & just toss out what I don't agree with. ASR & any other audio forum I have been on are all the same in that I get read & see cool sh.. from some cool people & a... wipes are on all of them as in the real world too. I expect no different

 

[fpitas]

Well, I have proof that power cables matter. Without it my amps don't even power up!

 

[delta76]

I enjoy those 2- forums at SHF just as much as lurking @ ASR. ASR is a buzz kill sometimes because some get caught up in the if it measures perfect it must be....I like measurements too & certainly could care less about expensive cables unless Magomi & ProCo is consider voodoo here, but I also can't stand Genelec anything or anything else with Beryllium, Titanium, Aluminium, tweeters. I much prefer active Dynaudio & ATC. I can enjoy records just as much as digital or even tape for that matter. I'm actually going to build a 3rd system in a spare room that is completely vintage where I can run all my tuners, tape decks & older TT's. & I already know it will be just as enjoyable is my DSP active main rig. My bedroom system is just as enjoyable & awesome as my main & 20x cheaper too. An old pair of Audio Physics w/ cheap Peerless HDS drivers couldn't sound good w/ a cheap old Yamaha pro amp could it... Sounds amazing to me & could care less who would think it wouldn't. I do audio forums to because that is where the gear & music freaks are, just like me & just toss out what I don't agree with. ASR & any other audio forum I have been on are all the same in that I get read & see cool sh.. from some cool people & a... wipes are on all of them as in the real world too. I expect no different

Just like foods everyone of us has different tastes to tones. Genelecs and other monitor speakers only try to be as accurate as possible. Beryllium or not. They can sound flat and boring to you and it is ok. Measurements are for the mass, not for individuals

 

[Deleted member 50321]

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

As I said, I'm all in favour of scientific tests. But I still listen with my ears. I have never bought anything based on reviews alone. I try to trial any potentially expensive purchase. All the info has a place. Believe me, I am from Yorkshire and a Yorkshireman is not easily parted from his money. Anyway, looking forward to a productive membership.

 

[delta76]

As I said, I'm all in favour of scientific tests. But I still listen with my ears. I have never bought anything based on reviews alone. I try to trial any potentially expensive purchase. All the info has a place. Believe me, I am from Yorkshire and a Yorkshireman is not easily parted from his money. Anyway, looking forward to a productive membership.

As you should. Reviews are to eliminate the options so you can have a short list for yourself. Higher pref. score means statistically it will be more likely for people to like that speaker better (than one which lower one). But it is up to your ears. If you like a speaker regardless of its pref., it is fine

 

[Sal1950]

As I said, I'm all in favour of scientific tests. But I still listen with my ears.

Remember that without tight bias controls on your listening, your eyes will tell you more about what to hear than your ears?

 

[MarkS]

But I still listen with my ears.

That's good. Because most listen with their eyes. The eyes are a much more powerful influence on our brains than the ears. For example, if you have not experienced the McGurk effect before, it is worthwhile; here is a BBC clip about it:

So if you've never tried having two pieces of similar kit (two different amps say), and have a friend put one or the other into your system, and control the volume for you, and then you try to decide which amp is in and which is out using your ears only: well that's an ear-opening experience that I recommend.

 

[MattHooper]

Well, I have proof that power cables matter. Without it my amps don't even power up!

Blind test or it didn’t happen.

 

[pkane]

Blind test or it didn’t happen.

A pro-tip: don't mess with power cords while blindfolded.

 

[Here2Learn]

Analogous to many aspects of American politics these days. It's impossible to overcome an irrational and unfounded belief with a rational rebuttal.

I used to view it like the "you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink", but I've become more philosophical about it, because ultimately our perception of life is experiential. Some are happy to study/learn and some just want to play.

A good analogy is this....

We can use science to detect an increase in Ghrelin, and study all the biochemical markers to deduce what a person needs for a particular meal for optimum health and physical performance. We could tell them they are hungry and exactly what they need to eat. But they just go on the feelings of their gut and want the KFC meal. In many ways, what's best for them won't be a satisfactory meal and what is not best for them literally IS what they want.

So giving them science, asking them to apply science etc, is a bit like telling giving them a prescription for something they don't want, versus a gut feeling for something they do want. They go on their feelings and experiential nature and are satisfied by simply indulging in that aspect, without applying thought.

And if one considers what it would be like to have a prescribed meal every time we eat, versus what the human-condition is hankering for based on feelings, I think we can all see that just going on gut feel here is going to be compelling. We're not all calculating our meals due to objectivity are we?

I'm not saying objectivity has no validity - it definitely does. But people are individuals and some cannot be bothered to learn and apply science as they just want to indulge in the experiential aspect of life and will base decisions based on experience and/or feelings, not rational thought.

The "impossible to overcome an irrational and unfounded belief with a rational rebuttal" is exactly right. Color doesn't really exist, but you experience it and utilize the ability of your first-hand perception to be safe at traffic lights and such. We don't abandon our evolved mechanism for something that measures wavelength to tell us what 'red' is at traffic lights. It's no surprise that the evolved mechanisms that enabled species survival are ingrained in to people's psychology as something they wish to rely on. It's not stupidity or irrationality per se - it's just human nature itself.

 

[fpitas]

Blind test or it didn’t happen.

I'm sure the snake oil afficianados wouldn't accept that as proof.

 

[Dial]

All sciences use the ABX and publications after peer review.