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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Mart68

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Take time to listen to hi-fi show or go to shop with the most brand.
I suspect most of us or many of us here at least have done that plenty of times and know the pitfalls of such an approach.
Consulting independent third party testing and measurements is a much better way of avoiding buying a stinker, missing out on a bargain, or paying over the odds for mediocrity. Less hassle too.
 

antcollinet

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Just to take note you are listening to chain of components from source-amp-speaker including interconnect and speaker wire. Buy everything from ASR suggestion, your problem will not be solved. ASR only measure at component level, not a component with complete setup. You may end up back to MBL because you are enjoying that sound. Take time to listen to hi-fi show or go to shop with the most brand. I rather spending thousands dollar on trips to listen as much system as possible than take bets at ASR or other forum or youtube. My first hi-fi was $300 after a decade or more jump to $10,000 system. Now reduce to $3,000 to setup for DAW.
If you value high fidelity, and buy a chain of components that individually measure as high fidelity (Flat FR, noise and distorition below audibility) - then you will end up with a transparent high fidelity system.

If you buy a bunch of poorly measuring, distortion ridden, noisy components, then yes, you have to worry about how the noise and distortion from one interacts with the noise and distortion of another.

This is why measurements matter.
 

kongwee

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If you value high fidelity, and buy a chain of components that individually measure as high fidelity (Flat FR, noise and distorition below audibility) - then you will end up with a transparent high fidelity system.
It is not so simple to buy all component in flat FR, noise and distortion below audibility and end up high fidelity system. Very likely end up an inaccurate system. Individual they may be accurate, but adding into chain of component they will behave oddly, impedance matching between these component will be a challenge. Listen to more setup, go for shows, audition in shops. You will know it is not that simple.
 

storing

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It is not so simple to buy all component in flat FR, noise and distortion below audibility and end up high fidelity system. Very likely end up an inaccurate system
Can you give an example? I mean, sure, impedance mismatching is a thing, but between which decent components exactly is this going to be an actual audible problem, and how would that be remedied?
 

sergeauckland

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It is not so simple to buy all component in flat FR, noise and distortion below audibility and end up high fidelity system. Very likely end up an inaccurate system. Individual they may be accurate, but adding into chain of component they will behave oddly, impedance matching between these component will be a challenge. Listen to more setup, go for shows, audition in shops. You will know it is not that simple.
No they won't. Buy individually accurate components, and they won't behave oddly. Not if the measurements are correct and suitable for the application. Impedance matching is a nonsense. EVERY piece of modern decent electronics has a low sending impedance into a high receiving impedance, so no problems with impedance. As to loudspeakers, just get an amplifier with sufficient output, rated into the loudspeakers' minimum impedance. Again, no matching issues. What you're suggesting is buying what you like the sound of. In order to do that, the system needs to have a sound, and therefore can't be accurate.
S
 

kongwee

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Can you give an example? I mean, sure, impedance mismatching is a thing, but between which decent components exactly is this going to be an actual audible problem, and how would that be remedied?
I never heard a setup base on these factors and end up high fidelity system. Or anyone fav about it. Very component there is a compromise. Unless you have 2C3D, that you get four company to work on the solution. Breakup, it is nether here or there.
No they won't. Buy individually accurate components, and they won't behave oddly. Not if the measurements are correct and suitable for the application. Impedance matching is a nonsense. EVERY piece of modern decent electronics has a low sending impedance into a high receiving impedance, so no problems with impedance. As to loudspeakers, just get an amplifier with sufficient output, rated into the loudspeakers' minimum impedance. Again, no matching issues. What you're suggesting is buying what you like the sound of. In order to do that, the system needs to have a sound, and therefore can't be accurate.
S
In the end, you have to buy off base on sound. Not reading from graph and hit the buy icon or go the shop and foot the money straight away. If you really did that, it is your choice.
 

storing

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I never heard a setup base on these factors and end up high fidelity system
Fair enough ,but I'm really looking for practical examples here. Like, name the gear. So, assuming you do have heard setups which are ok, what were the components and what made them work together better?

And does that mean if you take out a component and replace it with another one which according to measurements is very good, it could actually degrade things?
 

Mart68

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. What you're suggesting is buying what you like the sound of. In order to do that, the system needs to have a sound, and therefore can't be accurate.
S
Yes, an ideal system will only have the 'sound' of whatever recording you're playing on it. If you have 500 recordings you'll have 500 different sounding systems.
 

DSJR

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Back in the day, I used to ask genuine music lover customers intending to buy something, to visit a local hostelry having a live jazz session with minimal amplification (except the keyboard usually), so they could get a feel for live drums and brass (I had no idea of the power of a sax at ten paces for example). I do appreciate the recording and mixing process dilutes this somewhat, but there's enough excellent digital transfers of 1950's jazz to use as a kind of reference (not even my main taste in music genre, but my Lord it helped sort my audiophool crap out!!! - and did to many clients as well by what they told me..

Another thing, our ears, especially those of us over 50 years old, are so far off the self promoting 'golden ear' standard it's not true. The Sarah Mclachlan track lined to above (with - to me - horrible unnatural breathy voice) shows that via headphones, my left ear doesn't receive low bass any more (I hope it's not Otosclerosis and it's just a permanently blocked middle ear due to ongoing Rhinitis). Take HUGE care of your hearing, especially when young and still loving loud music as I once did with neighbours out and sometimes in the dem room. Distressing for me and it may mean a total re-evaluation of any sound system i have in the future.
 

kongwee

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Fair enough ,but I'm really looking for practical examples here. Like, name the gear. So, assuming you do have heard setups which are ok, what were the components and what made them work together better?

And does that mean if you take out a component and replace it with another one which according to measurements is very good, it could actually degrade things?
With my current system, I can work some more. Not in hurry. Everything still work and enjoyable. As hobby, I still keep track especially on Class D amps. I'm using Equator Audio Q8 and having Yamaha MPS7 as backup system. Using Focusrite Scarlett as audio interface as audio interface. Yup, I am using for DAW. My former setup was Pioneer DVD player with YBA integrated with Martin Logan Ascent. Cable mostly DIY, monster cable, some given to me, Belden cables. I used to attend hifi shows. Really don't mind paying the tickets. Listen to Wilson Audio, Mark, Krell, Goldmound, MBL, Audio Note......etc listen to their systems were enjoyable.

For your second question. Speaker and amp must of course drive properly. Some speaker measurement quite flat, but so so in detail. Some speaker measure not so flat, but giving more detail. It is possible to flatten the speaker with over beefed up crossover. More inductor, capacitor and resister to flatten the respond. More these in signal path more degradation in micro detail. The cabinet also add it own resonance on the speaker. Your amp connect to the source like streamer, CD player.....etc. You have to look out for RCA and XLR connection. Cable come into place. Some bright, some very mid, some bassy even they can measured very close together. Again amp and speaker you really got to listen with volume you are listening to. It is ok to have overkill amp power than the speaker handle. Of course, you listen to the soundstaging, imaging, top, mid, low.....etc with your favorite music. It is very hard to express in writing. Really listen more.
 

storing

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With my current system, I can work some more. Not in hurry. Everything still work and enjoyable. As hobby, I still keep track especially on Class D amps. I'm using Equator Audio Q8 and having Yamaha MPS7 as backup system. Using Focusrite Scarlett as audio interface as audio interface. Yup, I am using for DAW. My former setup was Pioneer DVD player with YBA integrated with Martin Logan Ascent. Cable mostly DIY, monster cable, some given to me, Belden cables. I used to attend hifi shows. Really don't mind paying the tickets. Listen to Wilson Audio, Mark, Krell, Goldmound, MBL, Audio Note......etc listen to their systems were enjoyable.

For your second question. Speaker and amp must of course drive properly. Some speaker measurement quite flat, but so so in detail. Some speaker measure not so flat, but giving more detail. It is possible to flatten the speaker with over beefed up crossover. More inductor, capacitor and resister to flatten the respond. More these in signal path more degradation in micro detail. The cabinet also add it own resonance on the speaker. Your amp connect to the source like streamer, CD player.....etc. You have to look out for RCA and XLR connection. Cable come into place. Some bright, some very mid, some bassy even they can measured very close together. Again amp and speaker you really got to listen with volume you are listening to. It is ok to have overkill amp power than the speaker handle. Of course, you listen to the soundstaging, imaging, top, mid, low.....etc with your favorite music. It is very hard to express in writing. Really listen more.
Sorry but none of this really supports the notion that some components work better together than others. You're just listing gear and saying things like 'degradation in micro detail' which doesn't really mean anything. Rememer you originally said 'Individual they may be accurate, but adding into chain of component they will behave oddly', but have yet to come up with a practical example of when/how this happened. And when speakers com into play, the room is the thing which has a very large influence, but that is not what this is about. Unless you actually meant 'you can have all the best equipment but put in in a crappy room and then the result will be crappy' of course, then we're in agreement.
 

kongwee

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Sorry but none of this really supports the notion that some components work better together than others. You're just listing gear and saying things like 'degradation in micro detail' which doesn't really mean anything. Rememer you originally said 'Individual they may be accurate, but adding into chain of component they will behave oddly', but have yet to come up with a practical example of when/how this happened. And when speakers com into play, the room is the thing which has a very large influence, but that is not what this is about. Unless you actually meant 'you can have all the best equipment but put in in a crappy room and then the result will be crappy' of course, then we're in agreement.
Of course if you want to be in the camp of flat respond, noise and distortion beyond audible. Confidence with just looking at graphs. You can go ahead, purchase and ensemble such system too. I respect your decision. This hobby is endless wormholes.
 

kongwee

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This hobby does NOT have endless wormholes for COMPETENTLY DESIGNED GEAR. That's the whole issue. Most of the gear that is the type you have described is DELIBERATELY designed to be "other than accurate". Jim
Loop again for your so call FR, noise and distortion beyond audible argument. Sure go and buy FR 8361A. I may want to buy 8351B. For me and DAW work will tweak it, cannot trust everything on calculation need to do signal sweep test.
 

pkane

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Loop again for your so call FR, noise and distortion beyond audible argument. Sure go and buy FR 8361A. I may want to buy 8351B. For me and DAW work will tweak it, cannot trust everything on calculation need to do signal sweep test.
It's interesting that audiophiles (especially the subjectivist type) seem to think that everyone is caught up in this constant loop of changing components, adding new cables, replacing power supplies, adding signal cleaners, etc., all just to become disillusioned and start looking for the next upgrade.

There is a way off this hamster wheel, but you need to realize that you want to get off of it, first. This starts with learning what's real and what's not by testing yourself and your equipment with ears only. But, if you don't take the first step, you'll be on that spinning wheel forever.
 

Jimbob54

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Of course if you want to be in the camp of flat respond, noise and distortion beyond audible. Confidence with just looking at graphs. You can go ahead, purchase and ensemble such system too. I respect your decision. This hobby is endless wormholes.
Why would anyone want to be in any other camp (and this is the important bit) as a starter for their system? Then you can tweak at source using DSP to take account of mood, room etc etc.

DAC that doesnt colour sound, amp that has low noise and low distortion with enough power on tap for max volume from chosen speakers for the room and music you like. Job done, surely?
 

Killingbeans

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Individual they may be accurate, but adding into chain of component they will behave oddly, impedance matching between these component will be a challenge.

Shouldn't be a problem with well designed gear. The normal consensus in audio engineering is to use impedance bridging, and not impedance matching. It's what you should expect when buying audio gear. Impedance matching is pointless at audible frequencies, and therefore the industry is using bridging instead. You only get in/output impedances that aren't aimed at bridging from nutjob cottage industry brands.
 

DonR

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Even Paul McGowan of PS Audio (infamy) doesn't think that impedance matching is a thing anymore. Like so many audiophile myths, it comes from the days of vacuum tubes and output transformers where it made a difference. Most modern equipment has near 0 output impedance and near-infinite input impedance (thank you opamps!). I think there is also some trickle-down from concepts that are important in the RF world but have absolutely no implications in the audio band.
 

kongwee

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It's interesting that audiophiles (especially the subjectivist type) seem to think that everyone is caught up in this constant loop of changing components, adding new cables, replacing power supplies, adding signal cleaners, etc., all just to become disillusioned and start looking for the next upgrade.

There is a way off this hamster wheel, but you need to realize that you want to get off of it, first. This starts with learning what's real and what's not by testing yourself and your equipment with ears only. But, if you don't take the first step, you'll be on that spinning wheel forever.
Why would anyone want to be in any other camp (and this is the important bit) as a starter for their system? Then you can tweak at source using DSP to take account of mood, room etc etc.

DAC that doesnt colour sound, amp that has low noise and low distortion with enough power on tap for max volume from chosen speakers for the room and music you like. Job done, surely?
I walk between audiophile and studio work. Not big deal. I trust my ear. Years of listening and tweaking. I'm only not alone. Many teenager if they could, have already own studio monitor, headphone, audio interface. Build up to trust their ears. They can read graphs and went to listen to the actual system. Build hi fi system for leisure. They can be flat respond earthing and audiophile too. No big deal.
 

krabapple

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I never heard a setup base on these factors and end up high fidelity system. Or anyone fav about it.

Such claptrap has no place here: Audio Science Review.

Your posts are word salads of technical jargon and questionable opinions asserted as plain fact. You have no science -- which is not just 'measurements' -- to back them up. Only the same old 'but I hear it' anecdotal garbage repeated over and over.
 
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