Mercedes E63 AMG wagon

[Frank Dernie]

Manuals are more fun. Automatics are often faster, but that doesn't matter on the road. Mercedes rarely did manuals in the US. Very rarely.

Merc have never had a manual 'box that could take the torque of the bigger engines. The market, at the time they would have engineered such a thing, was mainly for big luxury cars at the big engine end. They didn't buy AMG until later.
My 500E has a 4 speed auto and the speed limit of 150mph is achieved by the rev limiter, so top gear is pretty short even though 1st is fairly long for a sporty car. This is good for performance but not fuel consumption. If I press on I get 200 miles from a 20 (Imperial) gallon fuel tank
The AMG (still before Merc owned them) mods to the car was mainly fitting a long final drive so the top speed from the available power was achieved and some bigger wheels and spring/damper changes.
The F1 driver I was working with at the time had an AMG version and asked to drive mine to feel the difference. It was a wild ride, as usual, but he said it actually felt quicker than his at road speeds because of the gearing.
Anyway I still have and love it, cost of spares has been moot since I haven't needed many.
Mostly I drive a plug-in hybrid Prius or an open sports car nowadays though with petrol at £5-6 per (Imperial) gallon.

 

[QMuse]

Not always. Usually, but not always. Especially not so if the automatic is implemented as a DCT.

Not true. DCT is in fact hybridised automated manual transmission and as such can only come close with transmission losses to manual.

In some models the auto has more gears which allows it to be faster. And of course once an auto locks up in highest gear it isn't suffering those other losses so much.

That really depends on how you define "faster". More gears allow you to accelerate faster but doesn't imply higher top speed. Transmission losses occur in every gear, they are related to friction losses and the power spent to rotate the transmission and clutch elements.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not always. Usually, but not always. Especially not so if the automatic is implemented as a DCT.

In some models the auto has more gears which allows it to be faster. And of course once an auto locks up in highest gear it isn't suffering those other losses so much.

The other situation is once you get into enough power, most people will have trouble putting the power to the pavement with a manual as effectively as a well designed automatic can do.

PS-even so, for any car I drive I'd prefer the manual transmission. The performance loss is small and the subjective feeling is just the reverse.

What is also true is that most cars now have some sort of electronic traction and stability control, meaning it is the electronics which decide how much power you are actually deploying not your right foot.
My sports car has a 6-speed manual and limited slip diff. The only electronic aid is anti-lock brakes. Definitely a car in which at least a modicum of skill is needed to drive fast unlike most today.

 

[QMuse]

The other situation is once you get into enough power, most people will have trouble putting the power to the pavement with a manual as effectively as a well designed automatic can do.

I drive 410HP FWD car so I'm quite familiar with that.

I worked for several months with my ECU tuner from Sweded until I found optimum torque curves in 1st and 2nd gear which allowed the car to accelerate at it's fastest pace without much wheel spin. Today'y ECU's are able to solve such issues without hassle.

 

[QMuse]

PS-even so, for any car I drive I'd prefer the manual transmission. The performance loss is small and the subjective feeling is just the reverse.

Of course, auto's are for pussies. I don't consider DCT as auto.

Btw, transmision losses with same manual gearbox range from 13-14% for FWD to 16-17% with RWD.

 

[beefkabob]

Merc have never had a manual 'box that could take the torque of the bigger engines. The market, at the time they would have engineered such a thing, was mainly for big luxury cars at the big engine end. They didn't buy AMG until later.
My 500E has a 4 speed auto and the speed limit of 150mph is achieved by the rev limiter, so top gear is pretty short even though 1st is fairly long for a sporty car. This is good for performance but not fuel consumption. If I press on I get 200 miles from a 20 (Imperial) gallon fuel tank
The AMG (still before Merc owned them) mods to the car was mainly fitting a long final drive so the top speed from the available power was achieved and some bigger wheels and spring/damper changes.
The F1 driver I was working with at the time had an AMG version and asked to drive mine to feel the difference. It was a wild ride, as usual, but he said it actually felt quicker than his at road speeds because of the gearing.
Anyway I still have and love it, cost of spares has been moot since I haven't needed many.
Mostly I drive a plug-in hybrid Prius or an open sports car nowadays though with petrol at £5-6 per (Imperial) gallon.

Ah, the Merc 500E! A lot of love exists for that car. Funny, the only 500E I've owned is a Fiat electric. That car is an understeering blast. My first daily driver was a 1984 300SD. I never really wanted a Mercedes after that slug.
Gearing is an interesting thing. There was a lower end version of the Dodge Hemi NA that was actually, in one gear at one point, experiencing more acceleration than the supercharged version at its peak, if only briefly.
Have you driven a Jaguar I-Pace? You might trade the 500E and the Prius in for that one. Best overall road car I've ever driven, ever. I'm still keeping the FRS, but that I-Pace is sublime. Also no petrol.
I'd never take a ride along with a Forumla 1 driver, not even in a Prius. I did three laps of a ride along in an 80s, track-prepped Porsche at 8/10ths. Driver was a great instructor and sometimes even paid driver. I was nauseous for the rest of the day.
This car:

 

[Frank Dernie]

Have you driven a Jaguar I-Pace?

Yes. I considered one before buying the Prius and had a test drive.
The designer (stylist perhaps I should say) Ian Callum is a friend and ex-colleague.
I loved it but, like the Porsche Panamera plug-in I also short listed, in the end it didn't offer what I wanted. The Porsche was too big and too heavy (and the extras stupidly expensive) The i-Pace problem is remote charging infrastructure here is not confidence inspiring for anything but Tesla.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Not true. DCT is in fact hybridised automated manual transmission and as such can only come close with transmission losses to manual.



That really depends on how you define "faster". More gears allow you to accelerate faster but doesn't imply higher top speed. Transmission losses occur in every gear, they are related to friction losses and the power spent to rotate the transmission and clutch elements.

The difference in a DCT and manual is very small. Like 1%. As for top speed, when the torque converter locks up, much of your hydraulic losses drop out, and the difference is again small. More than 1%, but not much. Plus if you have an 8 speed auto you might have better gearing that more than overcomes or at least equals the losses even for top speed. Again whatever advantage the manual has in small to negligible.

Maybe at worst a modern auto vs a manual might be a top speed difference of 2% in mph. So for a 200 mph car, 4 mph. Okay its faster, but not much. If more gears in the auto let you accelerate faster nowhere other than the salt flats, western USA highways when law enforcement are asleep or very few other places could such a difference actually come into play.

Again, I'm not big on auto transmissions in cars I care about, but truth is having an auto isn't very much of an impediment to performance like it was 30+ years ago.

PS my open top sports car also has anti-lock brakes and no other "driver's aids".

 

[Frank Dernie]

I'd never take a ride along with a Forumla 1 driver,

It may not be as bad as you think, they are probably much, much, much better than the instructor you experienced.
Particular drives where the immense difference between them an mere good drivers really stick in my mind was the old Nurbergring with Keke Rosberg, Paul Ricard with Michael Schumacher and Brands Hatch with Carlos Reutemann. In later years the circuits wouldn't let us go out and play at circuits when we were testing for insurance reasons.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Of course, auto's are for pussies. I don't consider DCT as auto.

Btw, transmision losses with same manual gearbox range from 13-14% for FWD to 16-17% with RWD.

Yes, that is the right range. I'll give up that 3% for rear wheel drive.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd never take a ride along with a Forumla 1 driver, not even in a Prius.

Shoot I would game for that ride.

Preferably not in a Prius. But if it was the only chance why not?

 

[QMuse]

The difference in a DCT and manual is very small. Like 1%. As for top speed, when the torque converter locks up, much of your hydraulic losses drop out, and the difference is again small. More than 1%, but not much. Plus if you have an 8 speed auto you might have better gearing that more than overcomes or at least equals the losses even for top speed. Again whatever advantage the manual has in small to negligible.

Maybe at worst a modern auto vs a manual might be a top speed difference of 2% in mph. So for a 200 mph car, 4 mph. Okay its faster, but not much. If more gears in the auto let you accelerate faster nowhere other than the salt flats, western USA highways when law enforcement are asleep or very few other places could such a difference actually come into play.

Again, I'm not big on auto transmissions in cars I care about, but truth is having an auto isn't very much of an impediment to performance like it was 30+ years ago.

PS my open top sports car also has anti-lock brakes and no other "driver's aids".

Sure. But it is not really fair to compare DCT to manual as it is in fact advanced manual transmiosion, not auto. Also, when comparing gearing with manual vs auto it should be assumed that they have same number of gears.

It is acceleration that matters in most situations, I can't even remember when was the last time I reached top speed of my car (app 290km/h).

What open top sport car is that?

 

[Juhazi]

 

[QMuse]

Ehhh.. IMO that is the most beautifull convertible ever made.

 

[beefkabob]

Yes. I considered one before buying the Prius and had a test drive.
The designer (stylist perhaps I should say) Ian Callum is a friend and ex-colleague.
I loved it but, like the Porsche Panamera plug-in I also short listed, in the end it didn't offer what I wanted. The Porsche was too big and too heavy (and the extras stupidly expensive) The i-Pace problem is remote charging infrastructure here is not confidence inspiring for anything but Tesla.

Well, tell him he made a wonderful car and if he's ever in the SF Bay Area, I'll buy him a drink. We don't have a problem with the remote charging since we don't take long car trips. Also we still have a couple ICE cars.

Shoot I would game for that ride.

Preferably not in a Prius. But if it was the only chance why not?

99% chance I get out of the car and throw up. I like the concept. Not the reality.

It may not be as bad as you think, they are probably much, much, much better than the instructor you experienced.
Particular drives where the immense difference between them an mere good drivers really stick in my mind was the old Nurbergring with Keke Rosberg, Paul Ricard with Michael Schumacher and Brands Hatch with Carlos Reutemann. In later years the circuits wouldn't let us go out and play at circuits when we were testing for insurance reasons.

I'm sure an F1 driver is better than the instructor I had. Not a sliver of a doubt. But high g-forces and me are not friends. One reason I stopped martial arts is that the backfalls messed up my equilibrium. I'm never gonna be a fighter pilot. Don't even much like roller coasters.

Interestingly, that gets to a point about 0-60 times. Somewhere around the 3 second mark, many people start to feel sick. I'm not sure where the mark is for me. 3.5 is no problem. 3.0 might be. 2.4 is gonna make me lose my lunch.

 

[QMuse]

Interestingly, that gets to a point about 0-60 times. Somewhere around the 3 second mark, many people start to feel sick. I'm not sure where the mark is for me. 3.5 is no problem. 3.0 might be. 2.4 is gonna make me lose my lunch.

It is related to a sensation in the nerve called vagus. Try contracting your stomach muscles before acceleration and you should be able to withstand more.

 

[Frank Dernie]

My favourite is my mate Ricardo Patrese taking his wife round Jerez GP circuit in a little Honda. She didn't know there was a camera...

 

[Veri]

My favourite is my mate Ricardo Patrese taking his wife round Jerez GP circuit in a little Honda. She didn't know there was a camera...

OK that is really endearing

 

[QMuse]

My favourite is my mate Ricardo Patrese taking his wife round Jerez GP circuit in a little Honda. She didn't know there was a camera...

LOL

This only proves wife will object your driving no matter how good driver you are.

 

[Ron Texas]

Splendid oxymoron right there!
Big, heavy. high and unaerodynamic so sport is not a word that should ever be applied!

What's in a name, nothing. I'm surprised anyone would make an issue of this. Why are car threads like this?