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MEH / Synergy Horns vs. direct radiators - deep dive w/ measurements

Good advice. I have designed everything you mentioned but a compression driver. That is not easy to to do well. As for non-linearities, they are there as always and there are ways to do it well. An AMT is not really a good candidate for this application. As for planars not being used on horns I can think of quite a few that are. Alcons does, there are horns for a few not well made Chinese knock offs.

Hi Mark, I really like the sound of the Alcons. And they are the only ribbons I think that have the SPL to challenge compression drivers. Damn shame they won't sell drivers alone...heck, they won't even sell speakers alone without their amps/processing. If you haven't seen this already, page 12 has a comparison of an Alcons unit against compression drivers. https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Alcons-LR18-PP-test-eng.pdf
The Alcon unit clearly specs better distortion at higher SPL, but I think its distortion is still high enough to show how difficult it is to get higher SPL with low HF/VHF distortion.

For the HF/VHF I've no idea how one would integrate anything other than maybe a small dome into into a MEH. That might be nice for a lower SPL MEH,
but personally smaller MEHs with lower SPL don't make a lot of sense, as there are many good alternatives for that situation already.

At any rate, if you do try to build a MEH without a CD, I'd be very interested in how it goes.
 
I know some folks who believe this wouldn't even matter though, since "it's a single point source from zero distance out anyway":
I sure hope there aren't any folks that think a MEH achieves point source radiation.
They are the closest speaker design towards reaching the point source goal ......that I know of....... but I say "closest", no cigar.:)

And I do think they're been over romanticized at times. For instance, no matter what said, the SH-50 can't produce square waves ....without a FIR overlay to flatten out the passive's phase and mag further.
No MEH/synergy/any SPEAKER PERIOD...can produce square waves without having truly flat mag and phase across the spectrum.
A constant radiation pattern only means that the difference between on and off axis is diminished...but the underlying mag and phase response curve still holds the cards.

And disadvantages: It's hard to transition a compression driver's exit to the horn. It's hard to mount drivers on horn walls. The driver's ports are complicated and difficult to work in physically. It's hard to terminate the horn benignly. All these issues have potential adverse sonic impact, unless well engineered.

Their main benefit of integrating more of the spectrum towards point source than other designs, begs for lower frequency extension to take advantage of that benefit......which begs for LARGER size....and an incoming WAF collision.

OK, All that de-romanticizing said.........imho, they are still worth the love!!! :D
 
Hi Mark, I really like the sound of the Alcons. And they are the only ribbons I think that have the SPL to challenge compression drivers. Damn shame they won't sell drivers alone...heck, they won't even sell speakers alone without their amps/processing. If you haven't seen this already, page 12 has a comparison of an Alcons unit against compression drivers. https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Alcons-LR18-PP-test-eng.pdf
The Alcon unit clearly specs better distortion at higher SPL, but I think its distortion is still high enough to show how difficult it is to get higher SPL with low HF/VHF distortion.

For the HF/VHF I've no idea how one would integrate anything other than maybe a small dome into into a MEH. That might be nice for a lower SPL MEH,
but personally smaller MEHs with lower SPL don't make a lot of sense, as there are many good alternatives for that situation already.

At any rate, if you do try to build a MEH without a CD, I'd be very interested in how it goes.
I have a few of them. I have been designing planars for about 14 years off and on for a few clients. AMT's get into production. The planars not so easily. They are not inexpensive to make. And you would be surprised how cost driven audio is. Even multiple hundred thousand dollars loudspeakers are made with off the shelf drivers. It's just sad. SO yeah, It can be done. I have a few vendors that want them, but don't want to R&D them. As in pay for the design time. I have worked with probably the best driver manufacturer in the world since 2012. So I can get them made. It's a question of dollars. I stay independent. Which means when I have work I enjoy it and when I don't I'm a Carpenter or Cabinetmaker. Helps me think up new stuff actually the change in pace. I'll look at your link. I have as much information of what they are doing in the planars as is possible, and a few other tricks that I have learned doing AMT design work.

As for when I do one. If my winter works out I'll knock up something that should be rather interesting. I have LeCleach horn profiles that I bent up and laminated. I'll finish them up and turn them into MEH horns. I have never liked a conic. Putting enough work into a horn and not being happy with the end result would drive me nuts. (Shorter drive as I get older).

I am not in any way a DSP guru. I can use the tools and get things done. But I know there are guys that can run circles around me.

Mark

P.S. I looked at the link. Saved it. Great reason to make pro quality ribbons. And I agree 100% with the results. WHen you look at the distortion graph they list the distortion in DB relative to the signal SPL. https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm This will help you understand how much distortion that really is. Compression drivers basically rely on harmonics above 10k to get you any high frequency output. Our ears are most sensitive to this between about 1k and 4k, but that is depending on overall content of what we are listening to. Having played in front of a drum set for a few years daily in the 80's I can tell you I very rarely hear drums or cymbals in a recording that remind me even a little of what they really sound like.

Mark
 
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Not sure if you guys know about this one. It's free.

Mark
 
page 12 has a comparison of an Alcons unit against compression drivers. https://www.alconsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Alcons-LR18-PP-test-eng.pdf
The Alcon unit clearly specs better distortion at higher SPL, but I think its distortion is still high enough to show how difficult it is to get higher SPL with low HF/VHF distortion.

I was about to link this document, then realized it doesn't specify coverage for both DUTs. The horn used for the comp driver might be a 90x60° or similar constant directivity one, while the Alcons, as shown / measured (page 11), has the narrowing beam (with rising frequency) of a normal line source in the vertical axis, to single degrees at VHF (very high frequencies). For an even comparison, the subjects should have appx. the same total coverage.

Do you have any evidence that this is an audible problem at sane domestic levels? It's almost pure 2nd harmonic with frequency-dependent IMD products (+20dB/decade).

Sources for actual (empirical) data on that question aren't plentiful, but for example the Production Partner has harmonic distortion & multitone (IMD) measurements on a ton of speakers with compression drivers. Erin has measured some CDs too, that you can compare to his reviews of speakers with dome tweeters, ribbons etc. Joseph Crowe has some. And you can check out a thorough comparison of mine on the topic here -> 1" dome tweeter vs. 1" compression driver on same size horn / waveguide, SPL & nonlinear distortion comparison

Based on all that, I personally see no evidence of it becoming an audible problem at typical in room listening levels. But imo it does in PA use. The only solution really are arrays, since you can't make a single driver much larger and powerful because even with Beryllium, you'll run into breakups and other issues at some point. An interesting new approach to this is Celestion's metric based optimization waveguides, which can supposedly be arrayed in 2 dimensions, producing an even wavefront at any array shape and size:

Unbenannt.jpg


On-topic: I acknowledge @gnarly 's measurements, and have engaged in private conversation with him just to clear up on the details - need a bit more documentation for complete interpretation. So far, I will say these seem like the best nonlinear distortion results I have seen from an MEH up to now.
 
I was about to link this document, then realized it doesn't specify coverage for both DUTs. The horn used for the comp driver might be a 90x60° or similar constant directivity one, while the Alcons, as shown / measured (page 11), has the narrowing beam (with rising frequency) of a normal line source in the vertical axis, to single degrees at VHF (very high frequencies). For an even comparison, the subjects should have appx. the same total coverage.

Yep. Coverage angles need to be the same for apples to apples.
imo, the real question is what is the vertical coverage of the single Alcon unit...i think i missed it if it was int the article. That angle would be the limiter for a single ribbon driver speaker. It of course doesn't matter for the line array box in the article though, as the vertical is no doubt designed to seam together with multiple boxes.
Sometimes i think the easiest way to lower harmonic distortion (if it matters) is simply by narrow the coverage to gain SPL within pattern, lol.
On-topic: I acknowledge @gnarly 's measurements, and have engaged in private conversation with him just to clear up on the details - need a bit more documentation for complete interpretation. So far, I will say these seem like the best nonlinear distortion results I have seen from an MEH up to now.

Like said in private message, here's the mdat for the measurements I posted...for any/all who care. Zoom in to see ripple increase, and pls tell me if you think there is evidence of chronic, systematic non-linearity...cause i sure don't. (change zip to mdat of course)
 

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Do you have any evidence that this is an audible problem at sane domestic levels? It's almost pure 2nd harmonic with frequency-dependent IMD products (+20dB/decade).
First the idea that second harmonic distortion is good is false. From where I stand, as a driver and speaker systems designer, I design for as little distortion as is reasonable for the price point. As a listener, I want distortion to be in audible as far as I can accomplish that goal. I played French Horn for 6 years in school. I ended up learning that I have perfect pitch. As in I hear notes in my mind. Distortion drives me around the bend, low frequency on up. I know what a lot of instruments sound like first hand. Not recorded, but live un-amplified. I want my systems to reproduce what is on the recording, not sing along and pretend that is a great idea.

As for evidence that it is audible search thresholds for distortion. I attach an easy to read fairly short paper discussion audiblity of distortion.

Mark
 

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ased on all that, I personally see no evidence of it becoming an audible problem at typical in room listening levels. But imo it does in PA use. The only solution really are arrays, since you can't make a single driver much larger and powerful because even with Beryllium, you'll run into breakups and other issues at some point.
Most of this is related to the choice of diaphragm, second followed by the diffraction plug, third by the interface between the compression driver and the horns throat. There is a lot going on. Massive issues going from a round throat to a conical horn. Blanket statements over simplify what is actually happening. In general terms I have listened to a few compression drivers that in a home setting were low in distortion. Beryllium can be made into a great compression driver diaphragm, so can some of the polyamide plastics. When I did a lot of measuring and research for AMT design I can tell you that Kapton has quite a nasty breakup depending on its thickness and the dimensions of the diaphragm. Kapton comes in 2 colours, brown, amber, or black. Anything yellow is polyester. Kapton's best claim to fame is high temperature. AMT's largest problem is their very stiff suspenson and the impedance we see in the air infront of them. It is difficult to get a lot of SPL from an AMT much below 1 kilohertz.

Everything has resonances and every diaphragm shape will have regions in it's passband where it does not behave as well as it does where it operates best. It is the nature of the beasts. Same goes for horns. The knowledgeable designers try and make the best of what they can. Best horn efficiency means 2 to 2.5 octaves of passband. So, 32 to 128 hertz or 1024 to 4096 hertz for the midrange. Rarely do you see systems that are maximized for efficiency. So you see horns and drivers that cover wider bandwidths.

Mark
 
Based on all that, I personally see no evidence of it becoming an audible problem at typical in room listening levels. But imo it does in PA use.
I agree. So far, I've only seen a bit of data suggesting that it's probably not audible at domestic levels and nothing showing that it is audible.

First the idea that second harmonic distortion is good is false.
I didn't mean to imply that 2nd harmonic is good (I know some believe this—I'm not one of them), just that the low order and the frequency dependence of the propagation distortion suggest that it's likely inaudible until you go way beyond the levels needed in a domestic-size room.
FWIW, I also played a brass instrument in school (trombone), although I don't have perfect pitch ;). I've also attended many unamplified performances by my local symphony orchestra and choir. Good compression drivers on good horns/waveguides sound just fine in my experience.
 
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On-topic: I acknowledge @gnarly 's measurements, and have engaged in private conversation with him just to clear up on the details - need a bit more documentation for complete interpretation. So far, I will say these seem like the best nonlinear distortion results I have seen from an MEH up to now.
Like said in private message, here's the mdat for the measurements I posted...for any/all who care. Zoom in to see ripple increase, and pls tell me if you think there is evidence of chronic, systematic non-linearity...cause i sure don't. (change zip to mdat of course)

So, as of now, I think I got most of the info necessary to properly interpret these measurements. I did ask for the exact measurement setup (box placement, microphone placement, ..) and did not get an answer on that, so I'll assume you measured with the box in place, as pictured here, which might result in some baffle extension along the subwoofer it is placed on, but which should be negligible.
As for the rest, the noisefloor and higher harmonic levels in your measurements indicate excellent SNR, while no added microphone distortion in the large signal runs can be observed, so you obviously have good measurement hardware, and I don't need more info on that - and I'll just assume the SPL calibration is correct, since, well, that's really not too hard to achieve. Finally, thank you for uploading the source files, which makes evaluation easier.


Compression:

Excitation was a standard REW sine sweep; which is important info in regards to energy density (crest factor). A sine is a much denser signal than for example stochastic noise, and as such will expose compression more.

I exported the 86 and 116 dB curves, level matched them, and subtracted the 86 dB curve from the 116 dB curve, to isolate compression. This is the result from 100 to 10000 Hz (everything above and below is negligible imo):

Compression MEH.png


On its own, there's really no issue here, with max. compression (or amplification) at around 1 dB at 116 dB. This result is also much better than the SH-50's.

A direct comparison to the same drivers, appropriately installed as direct radiators, would be the gold standard here, but we don't have that. So, just to have some reference, I'll throw in a comparison by proxy - the same TW Audio M12 I already used in this comparison, a 12/1,4" PA speaker with about half the LF membrane area and half the baffle size of this Syn 10. Same setup, methodics, and hardware (GPM on hard flat surface free field far field, Isemcon EMX-7150 & SC-1, etc.) as listed in most of my threads and videos. I only had 95, 110 and 120 dB GPM runs saved for this one, so the comparison is between 95 and 120 dB; excitation was also a sine sweep:

Compression Direct Radiator.png


This is a harder (higher SPL) compression test on a smaller speaker, and yet, while either's results are acceptable imo, the direct radiator doesn't display the multiple peaks and troughs of the MEH (~130 Hz, ~500 Hz).


Harmonic distortion:

Again, for lack of a direct comparison, one by proxy; avg. 116 dB both; M12 in 4pi this time; H4 mostly in the noisefloor in my measurement; graphs with identical scales:

HD MEH.png


HD Direct Radiator.png


Very comparable distortion results of the smaller direct radiator vs. the larger MEH. And the smaller direct radiator obviously radiates its SPL to a wider beam as well.


All in all, as I already said, these are the best nonlinear distortion results I've seen an MEH achieve, and I don't see an outright issue here either. However, there's also nothing that would invalidate the conclusion of my original work of increased distortion and compression in MEHs vs direct radiators.

That's it for me here. If something terribly important should arise, PM me.
 
So, as of now, I think I got most of the info necessary to properly interpret these measurements. I did ask for the exact measurement setup (box placement, microphone placement, ..) and did not get an answer on that, so I'll assume you measured with the box in place, as pictured here, which might result in some baffle extension along the subwoofer it is placed on, but which should be negligible.
As for the rest, the noisefloor and higher harmonic levels in your measurements indicate excellent SNR, while no added microphone distortion in the large signal runs can be observed, so you obviously have good measurement hardware, and I don't need more info on that - and I'll just assume the SPL calibration is correct, since, well, that's really not too hard to achieve. Finally, thank you for uploading the source files, which makes evaluation easier.

You're welcome :) Like said in PM, the measurements were taken in a heavily damped bedroom, at 1m.
I set the speaker on a bass trap barrel I made from 24" diameter, 3ft high rigid fiberglass tube of steam pipe insulation. I mention it because it is used to be a stand with minimal baffle effect. The heavily damped part consists of pulling 3 additional foldable beds/mattresses into the room, along with all the pillows and blankets I can easily muster, into a somewhat haphazard acoustic treatment. All in all, I've found it makes for a considerably cleaner indoor measuring environment, than the big room you were picturing. At least cleaner for the mid range up.

My best measurements and tunings for MEHs/ syns are made outdoors off a deck, giving about 25ms of reflection free. Setup has 4 mic vertical mast, 3-4m measuring distance, and spinorama. Can generate so much data quickly, biggest problem is managing it all Lol. Subs always ground plane outdoors...nothing else with home measurements is valid imo.
Use isemcon 7150's too. Reed calibrator. Baby pro for single mic, or x-32 or qsys for multi-mic....whatever has essential (imo) recallable mic-preamps.

1756733509951.jpeg
 
FWIW, I also played a brass instrument in school (trombone), although I don't have perfect pitch ;). I've also attended many unamplified performances by my local symphony orchestra and choir. Good compression drivers on good horns/waveguides sound just fine in my experience.
What it is worth is a real world reference. So many people have never experienced what we have. Anyone can choose to listen to live un-amplified music, it is just becoming more and more rare. Even small venues get plugged in and then tinkered with. Trombone was interesting. I learned it well enough when I was transcribing music for it. I still have a Trumpet. Sadly I can't afford the French Horn I would like! Maybe next time I'm in China I chase one down. A good brass instrument is not something you can confidently buy without trying.

Mark
 
My best measurements and tunings for MEHs/ syns are made outdoors off a deck, giving about 25ms of reflection free. Setup has 4 mic vertical mast, 3-4m measuring distance, and spinorama. Can generate so much data quickly, biggest problem is managing it all Lol. Subs always ground plane outdoors...nothing else with home measurements is valid imo.
Use isemcon 7150's too. Reed calibrator. Baby pro for single mic, or x-32 or qsys for multi-mic....whatever has essential (imo) recallable mic-preamps.
Nice! You know that you can do wide range ground plane measurements as well. I place a sheet of plywood on the ground and use a 1/4" mic the reliable top end is above the tweeter range. Mark Ganders original paper details the limits. Basically it's the diameter of you mic. And the measurements directly correlate to an anechoic chamber, or a tower mount.

To add to the measurement arsenal I have in the winter in desperation tried a moving mic method in REW. In my measuring room which is basically 7 '6" wide 8' tall and 15' long. One day out of sheer interest I tried a moving mic ground plane measurement in this room. It was surprisingly good. Yeah, mic on the floor, speaker on the floor and 100mm movements in a straight line alongside a tape measure. Then averaged out via the math functions in REW. Long Canadian winters and needing something resembling a reasonable measurement.

What you do lose in a ground plane measurement is the ceiling and floor bounce. When you are doing crossover work that tends to be rather important.

Mark
 
A direct comparison to the same drivers, appropriately installed as direct radiators, would be the gold standard here, but we don't have that. So, just to have some reference, I'll throw in a comparison by proxy - the same TW Audio M12 I already used in this comparison, a 12/1,4" PA speaker with about half the LF membrane area and half the baffle size of this Syn 10.

View attachment 473506

View attachment 473507

Very comparable distortion results of the smaller direct radiator vs. the larger MEH. And the smaller direct radiator obviously radiates its SPL to a wider beam as well.


All in all, as I already said, these are the best nonlinear distortion results I've seen an MEH achieve, and I don't see an outright issue here either. However, there's also nothing that would invalidate the conclusion of my original work of increased distortion and compression in MEHs vs direct radiators.

That's it for me here. If something terribly important should arise, PM me.



I really like TW Audio's products...and I think the M12 is one hell of a fine box. A1.4" CD on top a 12" sort of sets the standard for an all round small main/monitor imo.
My Meyer UPA-1P's are a very similar speaker, component and performance wise.

A common problem with all single 12"s i've encountered, is simply a low end magnitude roll-off, that squelch's transients starting below about 150Hz, and about killing them by the time 100Hz is reached.
Our sine sweeps with only +3dB peaks may look uncompressed/unclipped at 120dB, but transients on top that SPL have their heads chopped off.

I am a clean, uncompressed & unclipped headroom junkie..
What I like about my syns compared to the UPA or M12, is that I can put two 12"s into the same box where they tend to act as one unit without combing, and gain 6dB.

Another thing I like about the syns compared to my UPA (or the double 12" PM90s i made to solve the single 12" hole),
is the extended low frequency pattern control that simply comes from the horn size.

When a large MEH is built to have solid low freq extension down to 50Hz or below, it of course gets pretty large.
The white syn11 that i posted in #54 had two 18"s in addition to the normal two 12"s, four 4"s and coax CD, that the syn10's we've been comparing have.
It reached 40Hz, was 1220cm wide for 75 degree pattern control to about 275Hz......and was friggin awesome. It had such a powerful yet delicate sound.
It really is amazing to me to hear nearly all the spectrum, come out of one box so strong and clean, so effortlessly.

I say 'had', because i scrapped the pair of them into the dump. The 18's worked, but not as well as they should have. I'm convinced that the right pair of 15"s will do a better job. It will be my next (and hopefully last) syn project, when affordable plywood equivalent to russian birch, becomes available in the states again.
 
Nice! You know that you can do wide range ground plane measurements as well. I place a sheet of plywood on the ground and use a 1/4" mic the reliable top end is above the tweeter range. Mark Ganders original paper details the limits. Basically it's the diameter of you mic. And the measurements directly correlate to an anechoic chamber, or a tower mount.

To add to the measurement arsenal I have in the winter in desperation tried a moving mic method in REW. In my measuring room which is basically 7 '6" wide 8' tall and 15' long. One day out of sheer interest I tried a moving mic ground plane measurement in this room. It was surprisingly good. Yeah, mic on the floor, speaker on the floor and 100mm movements in a straight line alongside a tape measure. Then averaged out via the math functions in REW. Long Canadian winters and needing something resembling a reasonable measurement.

What you do lose in a ground plane measurement is the ceiling and floor bounce. When you are doing crossover work that tends to be rather important.

You sound like you've tried about every mic/ measurement technique you can think of, too! :)

I've tried ground plane for main speakers too, both outdoors and in. Agree that it works better than expected. And yep, smaller the mic capsule, the more accurate the higher end. Although that said, I honestly don't sweat VHF accuracy too much. I routinely EQ tracks to taste, and besides ..i figure I can't hear up there anyway !

I found a neat way to do moving mic transfer function averages, is with Smaart using live mic-tracking. It captures 24 frames of dual channel transfers per second using pink noise, for however long you want to average.
I've done that on a spinorama, rotating speaker back and forth from side to side between a defined range. Then slap a fully correcting FIR filter on that moving average measurement.
Put the filter in the processor and see how well it works, re-measuring the same back and forth rotations. Perfect flat mag and phase for a moving measurement !

The more I've learned about measurements, the more I've come to accept they are the weak link in how well I can tune speakers....and same goes for everybody I think.
I've gotten pretty good with DSP, especially FIR, but IIR too. It just comes down to how well the measurements reflect the acoustic reality we are trying to tune to. Because if they are real, I think the DSP settings are pretty trivial to get correct today, with the right filter software,
 
I would like to make a pair to ‘’slim’ my system I got the kef blade 2 meta and they are awesome , but expensive I would like to monetize and do the Scott jmod synergy , I already have subs , I think they should sound similar, the meh horn have a good vertical and horizontal directivity as my speakers, if somebody could help me in choosing

I've heard the Kefs and I've heard the SH50s and the Lambda Unity horns.

None of them sound similar, even the Lambda Unity horn sounds a lot different than the SH50.

Part of the reason I keep posting in my 'square pegs' thread is because I *really* want wide horizontal directivity and narrow vertical directivity.

It's possible to do that with a horn, but it gets big in a hurry.
 
I've heard the Kefs and I've heard the SH50s and the Lambda Unity horns.

None of them sound similar, even the Lambda Unity horn sounds a lot different than the SH50.

Part of the reason I keep posting in my 'square pegs' thread is because I *really* want wide horizontal directivity and narrow vertical directivity.

It's possible to do that with a horn, but it gets big in a hurry.
Bill Waslo's had that aim. Did you have a chance to listen to his? Well documented too.

Mark
 
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