Measuring the electronics inside active monitors

[hardisj]

For me, this topic is akin to testing the raw driver units of a loudspeaker. I have done that with a particular subwoofer and planned, at least in some cases, to do that with future tests on loudspeakers. Having said that, I still question the necessity or even benefit of me spending the time to do this. At the end of the day consumers buy the “package”. So, testing the drive units is not necessary unless you really need to understand the reason a loudspeaker might perform the way it does. In that regard, it’s nothing more than “for curiosity” for consumers. R&D engineers need to know these factors but consumers buy the end result. Any education on the how and why are simply that: educational.

Here’s an example of a subwoofer I tested the drive unit of:
https://erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/rythmik-f12g-direct-servo-subwoofer/

Figuring knowing the capabilities of the drive unit might help us to understand the capabilities of the system (driver+enclosure+amp). I had fun doing it. But TBH, I don’t think I had anyone comment about the performance of the subwoofer driver once I did the review. Which speaks to the interest of the consumer in the “hows and whys”.

 

[hardisj]

Personally my concern about active monitors (at least the really expensive ones...) is reliability and repairability. What are you going to do in 10 or 15 years when tin whiskers or a blown cap take out a DSP chip or microcontroller? Are Kii or D&D even still going to be around? Genelec and Neumann probably will, but will they even sell you a new board?

That’s a really good point. For someone like me who may go through gear a fair bit, I always do my best to keep any relevant packaging and take care of the speaker so I can optimize its resale value at a later date. I know I would have a hard time buying anything that would have zero support or repairability and therefore practically no market value at some point down the line. Even if it were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[tuga]

For me, this topic is a kin to testing the speaker components of a loudspeaker. Meaning, the Royal Drive units in the loudspeaker. I have done that with a particular subwoofer and planned, at least in some cases, to do that with future tests on loudspeakers. Having said that, I also question the necessity or even benefit to doing this. At the end of the day testing the drive units is not necessary unless you really need to understand the reason a loudspeaker might perform the way it does. In that regard, it’s nothing more than “for curiosity” for consumers. R&D engineers need to know these factors but consumers buy the end result. Any education on the how and why are simply that: educational.

Here’s an example of a subwoofer I tested the drive unit of:
https://erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/rythmik-f12g-direct-servo-subwoofer/

Figuring knowing the capabilities of the drive unit might help us to understand the capabilities of the system (driver+enclosure+amp). I had fun doing it. But TBH, I don’t think I had anyone comment about the performance of the subwoofer driver once I did the review. Which speaks to the interest of the consumer in the “hows and whys”.

What or you do you mean by "consumer"?

99.999999% of them won't ever read a hi-fi magazine let alone this forum.
And perhaps 75%, maybe 2/3s of the audiophile couldn't care less about measurements.
And maybe 1/3 of those audiophiles who lurk around here are unable to read the measurements and for them ultimately it's down to SINAD, Loudspeaker Preference Ratings or Amir's opinion.

Why bother?

 

[Liberal Democracy]

What or you do you mean by "consumer"?

99.999999% of them won't ever read a hi-fi magazine let alone this forum.
And perhaps 75%, maybe 2/3s of the audiophile couldn't care less about measurements.
And maybe 1/3 of those audiophiles who lurk around here are unable to read the measurements and for them ultimately it's down to SINAD, Loudspeaker Preference Ratings or Amir's opinion.

Why bother?

Helps keep the industry honest.

Evidence?, there's plenty if you read the forum.

 

[tuga]

Personally my concern about active monitors (at least the really expensive ones...) is reliability and repairability. What are you going to do in 10 or 15 years when tin whiskers or a blown cap take out a DSP chip or microcontroller? Are Kii or D&D even still going to be around? Genelec and Neumann probably will, but will they even sell you a new board?

I agree with this. Obsolescence is a huge problem in many areas. It may not be problematic to someone who uses active monitors professionaly as tools but for domestic use ti's an investment which doesn't give any return.

 

[tuga]

Helps keep the industry honest.

That is just wishful thinking.

 

[hardisj]

What or you do you mean by "consumer"?

99.999999% of them won't ever read a hi-fi magazine let alone this forum.
And perhaps 75%, maybe 2/3s of the audiophile couldn't care less about measurements.
And maybe 1/3 of those audiophiles who lurk around here are unable to read the measurements and for them ultimately it's down to SINAD, Loudspeaker Preference Ratings or Amir's opinion.

Why bother?

We are consumers.

The people who read the review I posted above are consumers. In the 7 or so years since I posted that review, I honestly don’t recall a single time where somebody wanted to discuss the performance of the raw subwoofer driver. Now, maybe if the drive unit was very poor and that length itself and explanation of a loudspeakers poor performance that might be a different subject. But overall I feel like testing components of a loudspeaker is less necessary when you already understand how they were implemented by the performance of the whole package.

To that point, I don’t know a single other reviewer who has done what I did. That makes you wonder if they also deem it unnecessary and not worth the time.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

That is just wishful thinking.

No it's not , it's proven .

Collectively we apply pressure, you don't know this but a few short years ago where we are now would of been unimaginable.

If you look at the trend , increasing popularity of the forum and follow the evidence you will see a difference has been made out of nothing.

 

[tuga]

We are consumers.

The people who read the review I posted above are consumers. In the 7 or so years since I posted that review, I honestly don’t recall a single time where somebody wanted to discuss the performance of the role subwoofer. Now, maybe if the drive unit was very poor and that length itself and explanation of a loudspeakers poor performance that might be a different subject. But overall I feel like testing components of a loudspeaker is less necessary when you already understand how they were implemented by the performance of the whole package.

To that point, I don’t know a single other reviewer who has done what I did. That makes you wonder if they also deem it unnecessary and not worth the time.

To put things into perspective, could you check on Analytics how many people visited that particular page? (you can't really say whether or not they read the review, though)


P.S.: the number of people before you posted the link

 

[tuga]

No it's not , it's proven .

It's proven that ASR has helped keep the industry honest.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

It's proven that ASR has helped keep the industry honest.

Yes .

And promoted good engineering and transparency in terms of measured performance.

As we grow and attract more members so will we attract more industry focus and more products will be created to serve a growing market .

Look at schiit audio as a easy example.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

What's the point of measuring the electrical components inside active speakers if it's not to apply pressure for them to improve.

Active speakers are a package, you can't separate them from the speaker so measuring them as separate entities is a waste of time ... Unless , see above .

 

[tuga]

Yes .

And promoted good engineering and transparency in terms of measured performance.

As we grow and attract more members so will we attract more industry focus and more products will be created to serve a growing market .

Look at schiit audio as a easy example.

What happened with Shiit Audio?

How many members does ASR have?

 

[tuga]

What's the point of measuring the electrical components inside active speakers if it's not to apply pressure for them to improve.

Active speakers are a package, you can't separate them from the speaker so measuring them as separate entities is a waste of time ... Unless , see above .

People seem to be very receptive to the "fake news" argument.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

What happened with Shiit Audio?

How many members does ASR have?

1st , read and find out for yourself after all your not one for taking someone's word for it.

2nd wrong question, membership is dwarfed by readership.

 

[Mnyb]

My active speakers are speced like this . take it with a truckload of salt .
The <0.02% THDspec is probably the amps and not the whole system .

Supose it's about economics these cheap JBL's have to use cheapest possible amps and they do have a problem they hiss audibly , thats when you cut the corner a bit to close . More expensive system can afford better even if't strictly not necessary .

Supose a <0.02% THD class AB amp also is a quiet amp if done correctly (there are 3*75W amps in each speaker), i think noise from the amps is a true limiting factor .
I once tried a velodyne sub at home once it went back to store quickly , it hissed a lot .

From Meridian datasheet over the DSP5200

Outline Specifications Performance: Frequency response in-room within 3dB from 35Hz to over 20kHz. Linear-phase mid/top crossover. Output >108dB spl @ 1m on music material. Noise less than 15dB spl. Overall distortion typically <0.02% at any frequency or level. Inputs: Two S/PDIF digital inputs, 32kHz-96kHz sampling rates at up to 24 bit with MHR support. Construction: ‘2 1/2-way’ acoustic reflex system. Drivers: 2 x 160mm polypropylene bass drivers. 1 x 25mm aluminium-dome tweeter, silver wire, short horn-loaded. Electronics: Two precision 24/192 oversampling converters for bass/mid and tweeter signals. Active bass/mid crossover. Digital and conversion electronics constructed using advanced surface-mount techniques and partitioned 6-layer printed-circuit boards. DSP: 150MIPS digital signal processor. Digital crossover at 2.6kHz. Response correction for the whole system. Bass protection. User tone controls. Analogue/digital volume and phase control. Amplifiers: Three 75W power amplifiers, one for each driver. Display: Eight-character display with system lights, can be blank. Dimensions: (Vertical model) Height: 903mm (without spikes/feet); width: 300mm at base, tapering to 179mm; depth: 356mm at base, tapering to 217mm. Weight: 35 kgs packed.

 

[pkane]

How many members does ASR have?

No idea, but here are the current visitor numbers (those that are currently online):

 

[hardisj]

To put things into perspective, could you check on Analytics how many people visited that particular page? (you can't really say whether or not they read the review, though)


P.S.: the number of people before you posted the link

I get it. You're trying to make the point that not many saw it and thus, little chance for there to be discussion about it. Since I moved that review to my own website just recently there's not many views there but here are the stats to where it was posted initially:
April 2013, HomeTheaterShack: 21k views, 4 replies. Not one about the raw drive unit performance. Not a single one. Out of 21-thousand views. Even if only 10% of people actually even read the review, that's 2100 people who would have vested their time and didn't find merit in even mentioning the component-level test I performed. It is what it is.



The point is, there was a LOT of views. And there's been a LOT of time for discussion to happen. But it didn't. So, based on that alone it seems reasonable to conclude that there just isn't the kind of interest I had hoped for.

You're married to your suggestion and want to see it come to fruition. I get it. I'm of the same "what's behind the curtain" curiosity; that's why I did and plan to continue to do this kind of raw driver testing when time permits or I feel it would be extremely beneficial. But the point stands; it seems consumers just aren't necessarily interested in the individual components of the overall package. Or, at the least, the ratio vastly favors the package over the components. But, like I said, I still deem it as unnecessary unless you're troubleshooting. Same thing for investigating crossover issues in a loudspeaker where it seems the issue may simply be a polarity wiring and require the tester to go a step further in to understanding the issue at hand.

That's my $0.02.

 

[ta240]

Is that an excuse for not excelling in the electronics half of an digital-active speaker?

It is funny that inaudible performance improvements are pursued with individual components and when it is an all in one it is shrugged off as only the end result matters.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

No idea, but here are the current visitor numbers (those that are currently online):
View attachment 58826

The information is at the bottom of the forum menu.

It's about 10400 but like I said it bears no relation to readership or how long each visitor spends here.

Far more meaningful metrics .