Measuring power output of a speaker amp to the speaker?

[antcollinet]

I just watched this which confirms my own tests about loudness and power. However, the host was saying that what we should be worried about is not watts, but how fast the amp can deliver the power when needed. What measurement is that?

It is a nonsense statement.

if the amp can do fullpower 20khz that demonstrates all the “speed” it needs.

 

[Hayabusa]

It is a nonsense statement.

if the amp can do fullpower 20khz that demonstrates all the “speed” it needs.

Maybe he talks about some extra headroom peakpower?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I just watched this which confirms my own tests about loudness and power. However, the host was saying that what we should be worried about is not watts, but how fast the amp can deliver the power when needed. What measurement is that?

Slew rate.

 

[Mario Soldier]

Couldn't tell you what your preferences might be. Altho I'm wondering why you don't use the RP800F for surround and the RP600F for rear surround. Not familiar with the Yamahas at all. You wouldn't do in-ceiling for Atmos?

I do this couse i am sitting away 3meter from the back sorounds and 3 from the FRont RF7.

But Only 1,80 from the sourrounds.

1,80 for the RP 8000 is very near i tried it and with the RP6000 as sourround it was better.

I tried in Ceiling but in Ceiling Speakers are very bad.......or you have to build a case in your ceiling.

I have the crossover for the Yamahas at 60 HZ , in ceiling can not.

Tried big Canton in Ceilings etc...... and the speakers are aligned to my hearing position.

Second thing is,when i ad an ceiling Center channel and voice of god i can run Auro 3D 13.2.

The two middle Yamahs then bring no sound


Idea was changig the Yamahas with RP 600M Klipsch but the Problem is the Basreflex on the RP 600 M it is behind the speakers (where i have to hang it), or using RB81 MK2

 

[Mario Soldier]

This would mean 100W


This would be 23kW... but lets assume you meant 100W then your amp would have 100% efficiency which would make it the only amp in existence that does this.
So quite obvious your measurements are incorrect and the reason is you use MUSIC as a test signal which contains peaks that are waaaayyyyy to short to be able to measure them using a regular volt- amp-meter.


It is not pointless IF the right test signals are used.
Music is NOT such a test signal.
Music output can ONLY be measured with an oscilloscope.
And even then this will only give you the peak voltage values but at least will show you if you are near clipping levels or what voltage peaks are present.
To even measure that you will have to know your way around scopes to be able to capture such peaks (playing with single shot or setting trigger levels).

When you really want the actual power measured you will ALSO need the current clamp (or a small series resistor) and a 2-channel scope and then you would have to calculate the power levels. As impedance vary (and mostly in the lows where the most of the power goes) the power is not that important.
All you need is the voltage peak levels, not the actual currents.


They do not need power. You apply a voltage and it draws a current which will vary depending on frequency.
An amplifier is a voltage source with a voltage and current limit.

How much power is required (it is only about peak voltages) depends on how loud you play.


You can clip a 250W rated speaker with a 600W rated amp using music IF you play loud enough.

As said a few times..... IF you want to determine what power rating you need as a minimum to reach the desired levels (which is really what you want to know) then there are ONLY 2 ways to find that out.

When using MUSIC as a test signal you will need an oscilloscope and you need to measure the peaks occurring in the music signal. From there you can CALCULATE the required continuous voltage (is power rating).

When using test signal you can use a (cheap) multimeter but you NEED to do that with a dummy load. You should not do that using speakers !!!!

You would have to buy an 8ohm (500W dummy load (or lower rated for short measurements, you only need to measure during a few seconds).
I will tell you HOW to do this but only if you have such a dummy load. DO NOT attempt this method using speakers.

Of course i mean the input at 230 Volt was 100 Watt ( this is what the kwh Meter showed) and yes 4 Amps max 25 Volts max (but it was so fast it is not 100% sure) of course this means 100% efficiency what can not be max 90% with this amp).

But this is of course the not 100% sure measurements.

But 100 Watt Output out of the wall or 100 Watt input in the Amp and 25 Volt at 4 Amps is relativ close.

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I used two of this modules one for an Speaker.

Iam sure i kill the RF7 Klipsch before this module clips (anyway i connected the two clipping outputs one for volts and one for current)... no clipping

But it is possible to let one of this modulesa clip

S-PRO2 - Pascal Audio

www.pascal-audio.com

But only when using one for 2 Speakers with 2 BTL iam far away of clipping, surely with full Power it kills my speakers.


But not sure if these modules are good , the measurement says not really.

If the are good i would buy two of these

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And connect only one channel its rated 2000 Watt4 Ohm/1400 Watt ( oHm)

The measurement in the under 400 Watt range seems to be better than the 1200 AS1/2


Yes i can buy an ociloscope but i will use music for testing.

I have better multimeters for using at cars etc.

What i will know is can i bring my KLipsch Speakers with my music and an NCx500 Module to full output or will the module clip .


If it surely clips the measuremnt is unessesary than it is the wrong module.

Buckey says the NCx500 is not bridgeable.( I think he means his amp is not bridable).

Hypex says the new Nilai is bridgeable but with one power suplly the ouput is only 500 Watt but with two SMPS the power is 1000 Watt at 8 OHM, the KLipsch goes from 3,5 till 63 OHm.

Not sure if an bridged NIlai is worth it.

If not i go with the Pascal(Icepower till Purifi realeases their new BTL module.


Also i conected one of this modules.

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Bestellen Sie den 1200AS2 online bei SoundImports ✓ Versand am selben Tag ✓ Kostenloser Versand

www.soundimports.eu

One channel has also 600/1200 Watt but with 2 channels driven the output is only 620/700 Watt , but also no clipping.

So my idea was using one NCx500 with one Smpe (dual MOno) also rated 700 Watt 4 OHM will not clipp with my music.


But this amp i can bring to clip.

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Its an Dual MOno Hyped UCD400 OEM with 2 Power supplies an some added capacitors.

But its only rated 400 Watt 4 OHm


By soundimports you can change the speak to englisch or nederlands.

 

[Mario Soldier]

This would mean 100W


This would be 23kW... but lets assume you meant 100W then your amp would have 100% efficiency which would make it the only amp in existence that does this.
So quite obvious your measurements are incorrect and the reason is you use MUSIC as a test signal which contains peaks that are waaaayyyyy to short to be able to measure them using a regular volt- amp-meter.


It is not pointless IF the right test signals are used.
Music is NOT such a test signal.
Music output can ONLY be measured with an oscilloscope.
And even then this will only give you the peak voltage values but at least will show you if you are near clipping levels or what voltage peaks are present.
To even measure that you will have to know your way around scopes to be able to capture such peaks (playing with single shot or setting trigger levels).

When you really want the actual power measured you will ALSO need the current clamp (or a small series resistor) and a 2-channel scope and then you would have to calculate the power levels. As impedance vary (and mostly in the lows where the most of the power goes) the power is not that important.
All you need is the voltage peak levels, not the actual currents.


They do not need power. You apply a voltage and it draws a current which will vary depending on frequency.
An amplifier is a voltage source with a voltage and current limit.

How much power is required (it is only about peak voltages) depends on how loud you play.


You can clip a 250W rated speaker with a 600W rated amp using music IF you play loud enough.

As said a few times..... IF you want to determine what power rating you need as a minimum to reach the desired levels (which is really what you want to know) then there are ONLY 2 ways to find that out.

When using MUSIC as a test signal you will need an oscilloscope and you need to measure the peaks occurring in the music signal. From there you can CALCULATE the required continuous voltage (is power rating).

When using test signal you can use a (cheap) multimeter but you NEED to do that with a dummy load. You should not do that using speakers !!!!

You would have to buy an 8ohm (500W dummy load (or lower rated for short measurements, you only need to measure during a few seconds).
I will tell you HOW to do this but only if you have such a dummy load. DO NOT attempt this method using speakers.

They do not need power. You apply a voltage and it draws a current which will vary depending on frequency.
An amplifier is a voltage source with a voltage and current limit.

How much power is required (it is only about peak voltages) depends on how loud you play.



I will play them so loud short before i think they break.

And if the amp is clipping is of course depending on which music is played, i play music that need a lot of power......


THis is the clipping pascal in SE Mode ,it seems it clips before reaching 500 watts frequency dependent.

My stupid idea was an Dual MOno Hypex UCD 400 Clips and a single Pascal Spro2 clips also .But not full.
So i had the idea an NCx500 is rated higher 700 Watts 4 OHm uCDis400 and pascal 500. So it should not clip,but who knows.

Buying an Amp an than notice its not powerful enough but i spended 2000 Euro again is stupid....

 

[Deleted member 48726]

They do not need power. You apply a voltage and it draws a current which will vary depending on frequency.
An amplifier is a voltage source with a voltage and current limit.

How much power is required (it is only about peak voltages) depends on how loud you play.



I will play them so loud short before i think they break.

And if the amp is clipping is of course depending on which music is played, i play music that need a lot of power......


THis is the clipping pascal in SE Mode ,it seems it clips before reaching 500 watts frequency dependent.

My stupid idea was an Dual MOno Hypex UCD 400 Clips and a single Pascal Spro2 clips also .But not full.
So i had the idea an NCx500 is rated higher 700 Watts 4 OHm uCDis400 and pascal 500. So it should not clip,but who knows.

Buying an Amp an than notice its not powerful enough but i spended 2000 Euro again is stupid....

View attachment 289937

I once saw the clip lights on my P3200 Yamaha amp with 340 w at 8 ohms. I have sinced doubled my amplifier capability.

 

[NoxMorbis]

I once saw the clip lights on my P3200 Yamaha amp with 340 w at 8 ohms. I have sinced doubled my amplifier capability.

Slew rate.

Is that a concern these days? He did mention valve amps in the same sentence, so maybe he was referencing those, not transistor amps?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Is that a concern these days? He did mention valve amps in the same sentence, so maybe he was referencing those, not transistor amps?

No it's not. If it can deliver full power at 20 kHz it's "fast" enough.

 

[Mario Soldier]

I once saw the clip lights on my P3200 Yamaha amp with 340 w at 8 ohms. I have sinced doubled my amplifier capability.

I had an Yamaha P4500 sold it yetserday on ebay for 180 Bucks (nevermore class A/B) , and Fans to lud for home cinema.

It was rated 2x700 Watts at 4 Ohms. I saw it clipping very fast.....

I think it had less Power or limited current cabability.

 

[audiofooled]

Weather it clips or not may also depend on program material, no matter how many watts are available. Having a couple of db of headroom is beneficial regardless, which depends on the amp design, rather than power capability.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I had an Yamaha P4500 sold it yetserday on ebay for 180 Bucks (nevermore class A/B) , and Fans to lud for home cinema.

It was rated 2x700 Watts at 4 Ohms. I saw it clipping very fast.....

I think it had less Power or limited current cabability.

The fans on mine I've wired in series. This made them inaudible. But I don't use it anymore. I like the build quality inside out.

 

[Mario Soldier]

The fans on mine I've wired in series. This made them inaudible. But I don't use it anymore. I like the build quality inside out.

Yes the build Qualitiy was good two single Power mOdules on each side etc.


But now i use only Class D PUrifi/Hypex and Icepower and Pascal , But the Icepower and Pascal i will also subtstitute with Hypex or Purifi .


The aviable Purifies are so weak ...... at the moment

 

[Mario Soldier]

Weather it clips or not may also depend on program material, no matter how many watts are available. Having a couple of db of headroom is beneficial regardless, which depends on the amp design, rather than power capability.

Class A/B Amps with lot of Power heat my room extremly and the House Power Fuse breaks......

 

[Mario Soldier]

Do you live in a mansion? LOL, damn that's a lot of SPL potential.

No in a litte room but accustically edited (with a lot of damping for bass etc).

The 105 db THx say for peaks at hearing ponit are they dbA ,dbc, or dbz ????

I have a double 18 inch with 2,4 kw an 12 inch with 1kw and a double 10 inch with 600 watt subwoofer it seems it is not enough.

And i live in an 230 Volt not 120 Volt country it seems the class D work not the same with diffenent input volt.

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Merovinger here in Germany builds very Powerfull Subs with for example two 21 inch woofers and over 5 kw etc....

Or Only one 21 ich woofer with 2,5 or 5 kw.Max Power not RMS, RMS is the half.....

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/merovinger-1-56-high-end-subwoofer-21-zoll/2468409083-172-6473

Wahlweise 2,5 oder 5 kW Impuls Leistung (5kW Aufpreis).

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With 6 cm deflection .the 21 Woofer. He can build you all subs you have money for.

There are only two ways for more power more deflection or more membrane area.