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Measurements that affect vocal clarity

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jsilvela

jsilvela

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Room correction can improve clarity of the voices independent of frequency response. I find that speakers like the JBL 708P have exceptional clarity in voices. Based upon the measurements, I think the slightly flatter and less downward tilt plays a role but I also find that the sweet spot for the clarity is very narrow. So, dispersion likely plays a big role in intelligibility.

@jsilvela What receiver are you using?
I [was] using a Denon AVR X1500. With Ascend Sierra-1 fronts and an Ascend CBM170 center.
After some experimentation with/without center channel, I have retired the AVR and now have a ProJect preamp + Audiophonics Hypex amp to feed my Sierra-1's.

The issue with movies is the variability. Some movies have crystal clear dialog and rich voices.
Others have scenes, and even sections with muddled audio. I have come to the conclusion that not much can be done about those.
 
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jsilvela

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hey man, I have to say that after I added my center channel to my already 2.1, to a 3.1. I did not like it all. However once I added the surrounds I noticed full clarity and was pleased. I don’t know if it helped that I stuck to the same brand for all my speakers. Bose btw. I’m guessing different brands have their own sound signature and usually they know how their 5.1 sounds and engineer their products with that in mind. I Hope you enjoy the speakers you have.
Thanks!
I think that getting more clarity with surrounds makes very good sense. When you don't have surrounds, the ambient sounds will have to be fed to the center or the fronts, depending on your setup.
I notice for instance, on the "Gone Girl" blu-ray, some scenes get difficult to parse because of lots of ambient noise. I think a pair of surrounds might have helped.
But going to 5.1 ... oof too many speakers for my small living room.
Awesome that you found the improvement on your system!
 

GXAlan

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Thanks!
I think that getting more clarity with surrounds makes very good sense. When you don't have surrounds, the ambient sounds will have to be fed to the center or the fronts, depending on your setup.
I notice for instance, on the "Gone Girl" blu-ray, some scenes get difficult to parse because of lots of ambient noise. I think a pair of surrounds might have helped.
But going to 5.1 ... oof too many speakers for my small living room.
Awesome that you found the improvement on your system!

For Audyssey based receivers, have you disabled midrange compensation where there is a dip around 2 kHz?

Yes, more speakers can decrease the intermodulation distortion. You really see that difference when comparing the Blu Ray of House of Flying Daggers and the CD soundtrack.
 
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jsilvela

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For Audyssey based receivers, have you disabled midrange compensation where there is a dip around 2 kHz?

Yes, more speakers can decrease the intermodulation distortion. You really see that difference when comparing the Blu Ray of House of Flying Daggers and the CD soundtrack.
have not messed with Audissey, no. It's one rabbit hole that has not seemed appealing to me.
On Flying Daggers, and other action movies. I have seen people on ASR commenting on this: the high dynamic range in movies, esp. action movies. To add to the issue with not having enough speakers.
 
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GXAlan

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have not messed with Audissey, no. It's one rabbit hole that has not seemed appealing to me.
On Flying Daggers, and other action movies. I have seen people on ASR commenting on this: the high dynamic range in movies, esp. action movies. To add to the issue with not having enough speakers.

Audyssey is a rabbit hole but the reason Sound United bought out all of the patents and people are willing to spend money on tools like Dirac is that *for movies* this type of room correction works really well.

The “problem” is that you do want the iOS app to optimize the settings which is another $20.

It is going to be the best $20 upgrade for your home theater if you are still using that receiver.
 

funnychap

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Hello, first post here. Recently discovered this awesome site and been learning a lot.

I see many here have the same headache I do: to add or not to add a center channel for increased clarity in movies.
And if deciding to add a center channel, going the AVR route vs. AVP and external amp, or something even more complicated.

After reading Floyd Toole's book on Sound Reproduction (well more like skimming) years ago, I decided a center channel was a good idea and I went the AVR route (Denon), but skimped on the center speaker. (Ascend CBM-170 which amirm has reviewed; not as good as my L-R pair, Ascend Sierra-1's)

Thing is, with much of my learnings from ASR I've been motivated to do some comparison testing with "troublesome scenes" in particular movies, with / without center, or with stereo downmix but only one speaker on to avoid interference, toggling between CBM-170 vs Sierra-1 used for center... And to be honest, the troublesome scenes did not become significantly less or more clear with any alternative.
Been looking at center speaker reviews on ASR, and now I'm wondering if something like one of the Revels reviewed by Amir would make a difference.

Ok, that was setup for the question: are there specific speaker measurements that can give an indication of clarity of vocals?
Is a flat response in the speech frequencies a good proxy? Any other measurements or design parameters to look for?

Do people with a great center channel setup still get movies with muddled dialogs?
Look at 1) maximum power consumption 2) DAC inside
Example: My Arcam AVR5's power supply (1500watts) is twice as big as my Denon X3700H's maximum power consumption (660Watts).
My Arcam AVR5's dac is an audiophile grade ESS Sabre Pro series and if you look at the specs on ESS's website, the DNR is 124+, whereas most Denons have DNR below 124.

Watts per channel is a marketing gimmick like horsepower in a car. Example: even though my Arcam AVR5 has 80 wpc, and my Denon X3700H has 110 wpc, the Arcam sounds way way better than my Denon.

Example: With a car, it's torque (and how early in low rpm you get that torque) that's fun for acceleration even though it's horsepower that sells because that's what most people understand.
 
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funnychap

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Hello, first post here. Recently discovered this awesome site and been learning a lot.

I see many here have the same headache I do: to add or not to add a center channel for increased clarity in movies.
And if deciding to add a center channel, going the AVR route vs. AVP and external amp, or something even more complicated.

After reading Floyd Toole's book on Sound Reproduction (well more like skimming) years ago, I decided a center channel was a good idea and I went the AVR route (Denon), but skimped on the center speaker. (Ascend CBM-170 which amirm has reviewed; not as good as my L-R pair, Ascend Sierra-1's)

Thing is, with much of my learnings from ASR I've been motivated to do some comparison testing with "troublesome scenes" in particular movies, with / without center, or with stereo downmix but only one speaker on to avoid interference, toggling between CBM-170 vs Sierra-1 used for center... And to be honest, the troublesome scenes did not become significantly less or more clear with any alternative.
Been looking at center speaker reviews on ASR, and now I'm wondering if something like one of the Revels reviewed by Amir would make a difference.

Ok, that was setup for the question: are there specific speaker measurements that can give an indication of clarity of vocals?
Is a flat response in the speech frequencies a good proxy? Any other measurements or design parameters to look for?

Do people with a great center channel setup still get movies with muddled dialogs?
of course add a center channel for movies, it plays more than half of the soundtrack.
 

funnychap

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Hello, first post here. Recently discovered this awesome site and been learning a lot.

I see many here have the same headache I do: to add or not to add a center channel for increased clarity in movies.
And if deciding to add a center channel, going the AVR route vs. AVP and external amp, or something even more complicated.

After reading Floyd Toole's book on Sound Reproduction (well more like skimming) years ago, I decided a center channel was a good idea and I went the AVR route (Denon), but skimped on the center speaker. (Ascend CBM-170 which amirm has reviewed; not as good as my L-R pair, Ascend Sierra-1's)

Thing is, with much of my learnings from ASR I've been motivated to do some comparison testing with "troublesome scenes" in particular movies, with / without center, or with stereo downmix but only one speaker on to avoid interference, toggling between CBM-170 vs Sierra-1 used for center... And to be honest, the troublesome scenes did not become significantly less or more clear with any alternative.
Been looking at center speaker reviews on ASR, and now I'm wondering if something like one of the Revels reviewed by Amir would make a difference.

Ok, that was setup for the question: are there specific speaker measurements that can give an indication of clarity of vocals?
Is a flat response in the speech frequencies a good proxy? Any other measurements or design parameters to look for?

Do people with a great center channel setup still get movies with muddled dialogs?
I got better center channel clarity as I upgraded my receivers from Onkyo (can't remember the model as it was a Home Theater in a box bought in year 2000) to Denon 1912 to Denon S760H to Denon X3700H to Arcam AVR5.
Clarity is not the same as louder.
 

Tassin

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of course add a center channel for movies, it plays more than half of the soundtrack.
This is the reason I gave up on surround. I replaced a stereo amp (with 4 channels A+B) with an AVR and bought a dedicated center speaker. Clarity didn't improve at all. Maybe also because of reasons mentioned previously in this thread. But, I find the soundtrack is, most of the time, way too loud compared to voice. It should be the other way round, or at least both should be level.

In 2020 I went back to stereo and haven't regretted it for a second. With an excellent stereo setup, voices also come from the center. Okay, I had to give up surround, but since most of the sound is coming from the fronts anyway, I can live with that since I now have excellent sound quality for music 'which is far more important to me).
 

funnychap

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This is the reason I gave up on surround. I replaced a stereo amp (with 4 channels A+B) with an AVR and bought a dedicated center speaker. Clarity didn't improve at all. Maybe also because of reasons mentioned previously in this thread. But, I find the soundtrack is, most of the time, way too loud compared to voice. It should be the other way round, or at least both should be level.

In 2020 I went back to stereo and haven't regretted it for a second. With an excellent stereo setup, voices also come from the center. Okay, I had to give up surround, but since most of the sound is coming from the fronts anyway, I can live with that since I now have excellent sound quality for music 'which is far more important to me).
When you said ' I find the soundtrack is, most of the time, way too loud compared to voice. It should be the other way round, or at least both should be level.', I experienced that too with the lower model receivers.
Only my two higher receivers (Denon X3700H and Arcam AVR5) created even volume across the LCR speakers.
Did you calibrate the volume levels for each speaker? I use an iPhone decibels app to measure from my seating position.
 
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jsilvela

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I got better center channel clarity as I upgraded my receivers from Onkyo (can't remember the model as it was a Home Theater in a box bought in year 2000) to Denon 1912 to Denon S760H to Denon X3700H to Arcam AVR5.
Clarity is not the same as louder.
As you've responded three times to my post: you seem to be implying some stuff I didn't say in it. Not making the point for louder, and was already making tests with a center channel.
 

funnychap

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As you've responded three times to my post: you seem to be implying some stuff I didn't say in it. Not making the point for louder, and was already making tests with a center channel.
Even with my latest 2 receivers (Denon X3700H and Arcam AVR5), I also got better center channel clarity when I upgraded the speaker from 87db sensitivity to 89db sensitivty with titanium tweeters, to 91db sensitivty with titanium tweeters. They are all the same brand.
 
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jsilvela

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Left this thread a while back, as my conclusion overall was that no, *there is no single measurement that describes vocal clarity*.

Read many many threads at ASR, and there are people with preferences for stereo and for multi-channel, even after having done A/B comparisons.
Personally, I do like a dedicated center, and even opened a new thread to see if I could explain my preference: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/group-delay-produced-by-stereo.42639/

In my original message I asked if getting a better center channel would improve clarity.
Since then, I *did* get a better center channel, and it did increase clarity. BUT there are still movies with muddled audio. You can't do anything about badly recorded source material. There are also several posts at ASR about problems with dialog in movies.

As a strong meta-learning from ASR, the speakers by far matter more than the amp.
 

funnychap

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Left this thread a while back, as my conclusion overall was that no, *there is no single measurement that describes vocal clarity*.

Read many many threads at ASR, and there are people with preferences for stereo and for multi-channel, even after having done A/B comparisons.
Personally, I do like a dedicated center, and even opened a new thread to see if I could explain my preference: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/group-delay-produced-by-stereo.42639/

In my original message I asked if getting a better center channel would improve clarity.
Since then, I *did* get a better center channel, and it did increase clarity. BUT there are still movies with muddled audio. You can't do anything about badly recorded source material. There are also several posts at ASR about problems with dialog in movies.

As a strong meta-learning from ASR, the speakers by far matter more than the amp.
The amp/speakers are only going to take it up to the level of your source.
Some sources are better (best to worst) for movies: physical disc blu-ray/4k, then streaming Apple TV, Disney+, then the other streamers (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu), and of course a better DAC (you can't change this other than getting a better receiver, which is what I did upgrading from a Denon X3700H to Arcam AVR5).
 

fpitas

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I don't think anyone mentioned it per se, but in cinema design it has been considered desirable to restrict the vertical polar pattern to improve clarity, the reduction in ceiling and floor bounce being the reason. For home use, MTM, large horns, ribbon tweeters or line arrays can accomplish this, depending on frequency.
 
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jsilvela

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I don't think anyone mentioned it per se, but in cinema design it has been considered desirable to restrict the vertical polar pattern to improve clarity. For home use, MTM, large horns, ribbon tweeters or line arrays can accomplish this, depending on frequency.
Interesting... is that because it helps reduce ceiling and floor interference?
 

fpitas

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