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Measurements of Nakamichi Dragon Cassette Deck

I have a question for anyone with technical knowledge. I am returning to my Nakamichi RX-505, which functions well except for wow and flutter (ideally it should be closer to 0.04% WRMS), and I am wondering if this measurement is providing any hints as to where to look at.

nak - 3Hz flutter question.png


The 3Hz peak is what is killing the results. Is this related to a particular issue? I have since sourced an original capstan belt and a supposedly good idler tire replacement, but before I open up the deck I am wondering if I should be looking elsewhere. Thanks.
 
I have a question for anyone with technical knowledge. I am returning to my Nakamichi RX-505, which functions well except for wow and flutter (ideally it should be closer to 0.04% WRMS), and I am wondering if this measurement is providing any hints as to where to look at.

View attachment 387846

The 3Hz peak is what is killing the results. Is this related to a particular issue? I have since sourced an original capstan belt and a supposedly good idler tire replacement, but before I open up the deck I am wondering if I should be looking elsewhere. Thanks.

3Hz is 180RPM. And there's the harmonic at 6Hz or 360RPM, which looks like a resonance.

Take a measurement of the capstan shaft diameters, work out how many revolutions per minute it must turn to produce 4.76cm per second. Most capstan shafts are around 2.0-2.5mm. If your Nak has capstan diameters of ~2.53mm, that's pretty darned close to twice per revolution. That could point to bearing/shaft lubrication/damage on one or other of the flywheel/capstan shaft/bearings.

If you have a W&F track recorded at the start of a test cassette and again at the end, you can rule out supply/takeup issues due to the different rotational speeds of the supply and takeup tables/idlers etc.

Do you have an optical tacho? If you get hold of one, you can determine what piece of the deck is rotating at 180RPM (or half that) during play and that will be the problem. Are there any idlers on the main flywheel-capstan motor set?
 
3Hz is 180RPM. And there's the harmonic at 6Hz or 360RPM, which looks like a resonance.

Take a measurement of the capstan shaft diameters, work out how many revolutions per minute it must turn to produce 4.76cm per second. Most capstan shafts are around 2.0-2.5mm. If your Nak has capstan diameters of ~2.53mm, that's pretty darned close to twice per revolution. That could point to bearing/shaft lubrication/damage on one or other of the flywheel/capstan shaft/bearings.

If you have a W&F track recorded at the start of a test cassette and again at the end, you can rule out supply/takeup issues due to the different rotational speeds of the supply and takeup tables/idlers etc.

Do you have an optical tacho? If you get hold of one, you can determine what piece of the deck is rotating at 180RPM (or half that) during play and that will be the problem. Are there any idlers on the main flywheel-capstan motor set?
Amazing. What a remarkable wealth of knowledge you have.

Capstan shaft diameter of ~3.1mm (larger than most Nakamichis and much like with the Dragon I believe) so perhaps that is not it? (If I am reading you correctly, 3.1x180 = 558; 55.8/60 = 0.93).

There is an idler tire that is notorious for drying up. I ordered a supposedly good replacement. Now that is a pain in the butt to replace, lol, but if I can determine that it is that then it is worth it. Ordered a digital tacho.
 
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At 3.1mm diameter, the circumference is 9.74mm. At 47.6mm/s, it would be rotating 4.89 revolutions per second or 293RPM. So I don't think it's the capstans.

Make sure the optical tacho you buy can work at close range and with small diameter rotating objects. Most work with reflective tape AFAIK. Experiment with angles- my laser one is fussy if it gets reflections.

Idler tyres (tires) are nasty things. They get chewed up, shiny, get dents in them from sitting on the shelf stationary for decades and cause a heap of trouble. And the nylon can just crack for no good reason.

Update the thread when you investigate more. Cheers.
 
Denon DR-M20 Preliminary Measurements

I'm posting these quick measurements in case anyone is looking for an affordable, no-nonsense vintage tape deck that performs very well. This is a high quality 3-head Denon cassette deck from 1986 that goes for a lot less than better known Denon decks such as the DN-790R and even the DR-M22. I think it is a sleeper. It is still possible to get a good deal on these (I got it for $80 last year), but of course you want to be patient in order to get one in good condition. It is on queue for a full refurb so the measurements are of the deck as I got it, which I think is beneficial here. Additional measurements of the recording capabilities will come in the future. Retail was $400 ($1123 today with Covid-era inflation).

s-l1600.jpg
Denon DR-M20 Specs.jpg

Picture from a random eBay listing.

You get Dolby B & C, bias adjustment, and an MPX filter in case you want to record FM broadcasts, lol. Not much, just the important stuff, but the cassette mechanism is high quality and silent as advertised. You should get better performance from these over the dual decks that took over in the 1990s.

Again, I used ABEX test tapes and my E1DA Scaler and Cosmos.

Speed and wow and flutter. I try my best to capture median results as there are slight swings with these. WRMS and weighted quasi peak.

DENON WF 1.png
DENON QUASI TEAC.png


Wow and flutter is superlative and still at spec nearly 40 years later!! (Though clearly use was minimal.) Speed has maintained well but could use the tiniest tweak. You will have to spend A LOT to do better but unless you see measurements its all hypothetical. My Nakamichi is spec'd at 0.04% but this one is there and that one isn't. The belt works perfectly. This is why I can't recommend Sonys unless you can fix them yourself AND have a good belt source. We seem to have come to expect goo and that shouldn't be the case. This is also why I recommend brands such as Realistic, which used high quality belts. You have a better chance of getting something that works close to spec this way and thus they are better options for modern buyers of vintage gear, IMHO.

Distortion measurements based on a 1kHz type I tape.

DENON 1KHZ.jpg

Again, the tape is limited in usability for noise results. We can see more harmonics than on the Nakamichi. I'd have to open it up to see if there is anything going on but in general these are pretty standard results. Maybe one dB or so less than what I have been averaging. That number could well be measurement error.

1kHz oscope and lissajous (phase).

lissajous.jpg


DENON 1KHZ.png
DENON 1KHZ LISSA.png


12.5kHz oscope and lissajous.

DENON 12.5KHA OSCOPE.png
DENON 12.5KHZ LISSAJOUS.png


The deck needs a bit of azimuth adjustment (super easy if you have a test tape). Let's see if it messes with the FR as is.

CD vs DENON.gif


It could use some azimuth adjustment. Ironically the one with the left and right channels splintering off in the highs is the CD version. But as you can see the FR is not bad as is. It should be slightly warmer and even pleasing. We will see what happens after adjustment.

Basically this deck has very good bones. If you can find one in good condition, you might get a gem for peanuts.
 
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@USER was the RX-505 transport restored or not? I dont think any Nak in "original" condition is going to function properly at this point in time.

I've restored a few classic transport units and a few other sankyo transport units. The RX-505 still uses the classic transport IIRC.
Only a ZX-9 I restored was able to get close to spec, at around 0.02-0.03% W&F, all other classic transport units I was only able to achieve around 0.06-0.07% (still better than yours though).

Common issues is the capstan belt, idler tire (which you mentioned), re-lube and grease, and the worst is the seized pinched rollers due to grease dry-up.
tape-heads.net is really the best place to ask about Nak issues.
 
@USER was the RX-505 transport restored or not? I dont think any Nak in "original" condition is going to function properly at this point in time.

I've restored a few classic transport units and a few other sankyo transport units. The RX-505 still uses the classic transport IIRC.
Only a ZX-9 I restored was able to get close to spec, at around 0.02-0.03% W&F, all other classic transport units I was only able to achieve around 0.06-0.07% (still better than yours though).

Common issues is the capstan belt, idler tire (which you mentioned), re-lube and grease, and the worst is the seized pinched rollers due to grease dry-up.
tape-heads.net is really the best place to ask about Nak issues.

I brought it in for service and restoration but I don't think he did a lot to "restore" it based on my previous measurements. I measured it again recently after I adjusted it myself and it seems to be in very good condition other than the one issue causing the high W&F. Hopefully it is the capstan belt. Fingers crossed it is nothing too complicated and it is that one thing.

I'm eager to see how close to spec I can get the W&F. It says a lot that I have purchased 4 cheap Realistic SCP-32s (3 for friends) and this Denon and they are functioning at spec while a lot of big name decks (Sony in particular) don't. To be fair, one needed some caps replaced. But even a beginner can fix those.

These are the last two SCP-32s I got, the first one NOS. Measured as I received them, and again, I didn't cherry pick the results, they are median numbers. Speed is easily correctable.

If the guy who runs tape-heads wasn't such a grump I would sign up.

REAL32 3 WF 2 STOCK.png
real32wf.png
 
If you check out the [numerous] threads that pertain to capstan belt changes in Nak decks at Tapeheads, you'll note that in many cases (If not most) W+F figures are best with the original belt, despite age. Strange but true. Same for Nak rollers. Your issues (as already suggested) may well be down to dried grease and general maintenance. You may find that the old belt gives best W+F (i.e. better than a modern-made replacement) once it's been stripped and re-lubed. Naka rubber doesn't seem to deteriorate in the same way that other OEM rubber does.
 
3Hz is 180RPM. And there's the harmonic at 6Hz or 360RPM, which looks like a resonance.

Take a measurement of the capstan shaft diameters, work out how many revolutions per minute it must turn to produce 4.76cm per second. Most capstan shafts are around 2.0-2.5mm. If your Nak has capstan diameters of ~2.53mm, that's pretty darned close to twice per revolution. That could point to bearing/shaft lubrication/damage on one or other of the flywheel/capstan shaft/bearings.

If you have a W&F track recorded at the start of a test cassette and again at the end, you can rule out supply/takeup issues due to the different rotational speeds of the supply and takeup tables/idlers etc.

Do you have an optical tacho? If you get hold of one, you can determine what piece of the deck is rotating at 180RPM (or half that) during play and that will be the problem. Are there any idlers on the main flywheel-capstan motor set?

REEL L 333 RPM
CAPSTAN L 360 RPM
CAPSTAN R 300 RPM
PINCH ROLLER L 80 RPM
PINCH ROLLER R 80 RPM

At first the capstan difference seemed odd but I checked and indeed the right one was bigger in diameter.

So I had to look inside...

PXL_20240822_192337633.jpg


DING DING DING DING!

Thank you! Hopefully this belt is it (and/or the area needs lubrication). I look forward to posting new measurements if I don't screw things up.
 
@restorer-john Thank you once again. You saved me a lot of time and hassle.

I just tried a third party belt that I've been holding onto for a while and am getting this. WRMS and quasi-weighted peak, respectively. Spec is 0.04% WRMS.

nak.png
nak2.png


I think it is the bit of deformation on the right side that is the main culprit. Perhaps it got stretched out from years and years on the motor pully taut without moving.

PXL_20240823_221245978.jpg


Update: better results after playing a few cassettes. Had to zoom in to 0.1% scale.

NAKNEW.png


This belt from WJOE.COM is excellent. A nice surprise as I've heard horror stories regarding other third party belts. I have an authentic (and super pricey) belt coming in this week. This is a great opportunity to see how much of a difference it makes given age, storage, etc., but honestly I want to think about things and even consider leaving well enough alone. At this point it could simply be a matter of lubrication and cleaning and not the belt --though I paid a pro to do that not so long ago.

The 6Hz peak is what dominates the W&F now and it is cyclical in its rise and fall. Results get down to about 0.045% before rising a bit at this point. Could it be pointing to the left capstan that is moving at 360RPM??

I am glad that I don't have to change the idle tire (for now), which makes this a significant project with a lot of opportunities for me, an amateur, to screw things up. As it turns out you can change the belt with minimal effort and, importantly, without taking out the transport.

My full suite of measurements will be coming soon! So glad to have an awesome piece of audio history working well again. It's sounding especially good after all the trouble.
 
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@restorer-john Thank you once again. You saved me a lot of time and hassle.

I just tried a third party belt that I've been holding onto for a while and am getting this. WRMS and quasi-weighted peak, respectively. Spec is 0.04% WRMS.

View attachment 388160View attachment 388161

I think it is the bit of deformation on the right side that was the main culprit. Perhaps it got stretched out from years and years on the motor pully without moving.

View attachment 388199

Update: after playing a few cassettes. Had to zoom in to 0.1% scale.

View attachment 388192

This belt from WJOE.COM is excellent. I've heard horror stories regarding other third party belts. I have an authentic (and super pricey) belt coming in this week. This is a great opportunity to see how much of a difference it makes given age, etc., but honestly I want to think about things and even consider leaving well enough alone. At this point it could simply be a matter of lubrication and cleaning and not the belt --though I paid a pro to do that not so long ago.

The 6Hz peak is what dominates the W&F now and it is cyclical in its rise and fall. Results get down to about 0.045% before rising a bit at this point. Could it be pointing to the left capstan that is moving at 360RPM??

I am glad that --for now-- I don't have to change the idle tire, which makes this a significant project with a lot of opportunities for me, an amateur, to screw things up. As it turns out you can change the belt with minimal effort and, importantly, without taking out the transport.

My full suite of measurements will be coming soon! So glad to have an awesome piece of audio history working well again. It's sounding especially good after all the trouble.

I've found the original belts in just about any piece of gear are always the best. That is, until they either go hard or stretch too much.

I used to pop the covers and unhook the belts from the motor pulleys when storing tape decks for many years, and that paid off with the classic motor spindle "kink" like you show disappearing. You can always put the belt in boiling water, dry it, and then store it in a small plastic bag for a few months and the kink will diminish. You can "treat" tape deck belts, but the results can range from OK to disastrous IME. At the end of the day, they all go back to the rubber/petrochemicals they come from. Black goo.
 
I've seen enough. WJOE belts are excellent for Nakamichi decks. Joe knows his stuff.

After one day:

WF NEW.png
 
@USER Thank you for your multiple reviews and measurements. I own only one cassette deck (Teac 6030) and performed some measurements using my standard test files. That was funny.
Of course there are significant variations with different tapes and Dolby used.

I just wanted to comment on your REW’s measurements about the calculated ENOB, typically on your last review:

IMG_8754.jpeg


The ENOB, in this dashboard, is calculated from the SINAD (34.3dB) + 9.06dB = 43.36dB.
The 9.06dB is what REW gets from the ASIO driver, you are at -9.06dBFS at the input of the ADC, and so it adds it to the calculation.

So the ENOB is not 7.4 bits but rather less than 6. You might have mentioned it already, my bad if you did.

Also this dashboard shows 1kHz asked but 996Hz obtained. Of course this fluctuates too. I saw mine varying from 1000Hz to 1002Hz.

————
Flo
 
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