Measurements of a $5 DAC

[davmol]

It's a step up on the £9 DAC I just bought from Amazon, which out of the box doesn't work

 

[375HP2482]

That's one of those "BOM error" DACs (I've seen quite a few so far, in different from factors) where someone selected completely wrong low-pass filter capacitors. Non-existing design review and non-existing production quality control.

Yes, it sure looks like a BOM error. And that's the reason it's five bucks, otherwise known as a "blowout sale."

The distortion, though relatively high, is tolerable due to its audibly low noise.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Fun

 

[Billy Budapest]

That's one of those "BOM error" DACs (I've seen quite a few so far, in different from factors) where someone selected completely wrong low-pass filter capacitors. Non-existing design review and non-existing production quality control.

So who wants to buy one and install correct value capacitors and then measure it? Heck, I’ll buy one.

 

[johny_2000]

So who wants to buy one and install correct value capacitors and then measure it? Heck, I’ll buy one.

Good idea! But first measure the original components after they are unsoldered from the board.
Another factor is that the manufacturer/model of these devices is unknown, and there is a possibility of mismatch of the board schematics, BOM, etc.

 

[Nelaer]

Nice to have cx31993 for 6-8$ from AliExpress or Apple Doungle for ~10$

 

[krabapple]

And this is why I don't say all DACs sound the same

Who does?

 

[krabapple]

Not an uncommon claim, I've even read it here @ ASR

Where?

 

[Bleib]

Where?

I've been here long, it's not like I'm bookmarking certain claims to go back to much later on.
Just because this is scientifically focused page does not mean there isn't a variation of opinions here still..

 

[solderdude]

opinions are like....

 

[krabapple]

I've been here long, it's not like I'm bookmarking certain claims to go back to much later on.
Just because this is scientifically focused page does not mean there isn't a variation of opinions here still..

You say it is not uncommon.

I've been here for eight years.

Baldfaced claims that 'all DACs sound the same', full stop, don't ring a bell.

So yeah, I'd say it is uncommon.

You know who actually writes that phase most commonly on ASR?
People who write posts like yours about ASR

 

[Bleib]

You say it is not uncommon.

I've been here for eight years.

Baldfaced claims that 'all DACs sound the same', full stop, don't ring a bell.

So yeah, I'd say it is uncommon.

You know who actually writes that phase most commonly on ASR?
People who write posts like yours about ASR

OK, let's try this again. I said that those kinds of opinions are not uncommon. AND that those claims have also been said here. Yes, here at ASR.
Plenty of those posts in the topic about Denon AVR not having AKM DACs anymore. You won't hear a difference, been said many times. Just accept the more crap DAC that is inside them..

And I just read just today, someone wrote, that if you put the same DAC in its best setting (sinad about 120) and then put it to valve mode with a SINAD of about 50, most people won't hear a difference. Even though it's the same DAC.
So again, these opinions exists here as well. And there are people who imagine differences between DACs that measure basically the same. We have the goldenear types here as well.

 

[krabapple]

OK, let's try this again. I said that those kinds of opinions are not uncommon.

That DACs should be presumed to sound different, is by far, far, far the more common opinion, in the wide world.
Reports of DACs sounding different are not uncommon here at ASR, either.

The difference being, they commonly get pushback on ASR, because in fact, audible DAC difference is uncommon enough not be be presumed.
But 'uncommon' is not the same as 'nonexistant', at ASR or anywhere.

AND that those claims have also been said here. Yes, here at ASR.

We are not talking about 'these claims'.
We are talking about a very specific claim : 'all DACs sound the same" . Full stop, no qualifications. All DACs, every time, sound the same. That's what 'all' means.

Plenty of those posts in the topic about Denon AVR not having AKM DACs anymore. You won't hear a difference, been said many times. Just accept the more crap DAC that is inside them..

Show me the posts where the claim is: ALL DACs sound the same.
Let's count them. You say they're common here.

 

[Bleib]

That DACs should be presumed to sound different, is by far, far, far the more common opinion, in the wide world.
Reports of DACs sounding different are not uncommon here at ASR, either.

The difference being, they always gets pushback on ASR, because in fact, audible DAC difference is uncommon enough not be be presumed.
But 'uncommon' is not the same as 'nonexistant', at ASR or anywhere.



We are not talking about 'these claims'.
We are talking about a very specific claim : 'all DACs sound the same" . Full stop, no qualifications. All DACs, every time, sound the same. That's what 'all' means.





Show me the posts where the claim: ALL DACs sound the same.
Let's count them. You say they're common here.

I'm not playing reading comprehension with you again, this will be the last reply.
"You say they're common here."
No. I say that those opinions also exist here, and that they are more common elsewhere. Now I've said it three times. You don't quite understand what is written. I currently have a fever and and I'm still not as lost in words as you are.
You don't even appear to try to listen what is said, it seems that you have some sort of kneejerk reaction and then react with emotion. I'm not gonna play games with you.

When someone previously asked me to find someone who said all DACs sound the same, I'm not gonna go through a huge archive of posts. I've read what, at least 50 times more posts than I myself have written. Do people not comprehend that it's a massive amount.
If you don't notice them, fine, I don't care. But I'm not doing your bloody homework.
I say again, we have all sorts of viewpoints here. And you'll notice them, if you actually pay attention.

 

[Mnyb]

As said two pages back by someone else, we often leave out the qualifiers and often assume sane design choices .

I can sympathise with some engineer types here , how the hell do you make a DAC not audible transparent in 2024 you must really put up a fight to achieve this as a designer.

You must immediately throw away the application notes from ESS or AKM and absolutely not look at any prototype designs with the same or similar parts .

You then have these 5$ cr*p products where no one cared or you get absurd high end like the ”total DAC” where the design process is very esoteric and normal electronics know how is thrown out and proper reconstruction filters are sneezed at etc .

It’s very easy to lack the imagination on how absurd high end audio can be .
So I often assume when some very knowledgeable person say all “DAC sound the same” that they don’t want to make a two page essay with exceptions just because high end is weird and it is the general case of you want to simplify.

 

[krabapple]

I'm not playing reading comprehension with you again, this will be the last reply.
"You say they're common here."
No. I say that those opinions also exist here, and that they are more common elsewhere. Now I've said it three times. You don't quite understand what is written. I currently have a fever and and I'm still not as lost in words as you are.

OK, that's my mistake.

You say its 'not uncommon' generally, to blankly claim that all DACs sound the same
I say it is actually quite uncommon to do just that, compared to the far more common assumption that DACs do sound different.
'Quite uncommon' vs 'not uncommon' is a real difference, I think.

And it's a claim that's almost never made here at ASR, but for the opposite reason: it lacks nuance.

 

[antcollinet]

Plenty of those posts in the topic about Denon AVR not having AKM DACs anymore. You won't hear a difference, been said many times. Just accept the more crap DAC that is inside them..

The AKM dacs flaws are not sufficiently bad to create an audible difference. So statement one is almost certainly correct.

And I just read just today, someone wrote, that if you put the same DAC in its best setting (sinad about 120) and then put it to valve mode with a SINAD of about 50, most people won't hear a difference.

And even here: If you look at the result of the klippel listening tests, the vast majority of people can't hear distortion below about -45dB - so your DAC in valve mode will sound the same to that vast majority. It seems that the "most people" generalisation fits. But what it doesn't do is state that all DACs sound the same. There is a difference between:

These DACS sound the same to all people under all circumstances (you probably need distortion < 110 or 115dB for that.
These DACS sound the same to the vast majority of people under all circumstances
These DACS sound the same to everyone in real world listening.
These DACS sound the same to most people in real world listening.

Each statement can all be true at different levels of noise/distortion. And anyone making any of those statements is not making the unqualified claim that "all dacs sound the same"

Most people vastly overestimate the "golden-ness of their ears"and think they can hear miniscule amounts of noise and/or distortion. Whereas the reality is, most people simply cannot detect levels of distortion even 60dB (that's 1000 times) bigger than that of even halfway competent DACS in real world listening.

 

[krabapple]

Yup. In both cases the example he points to just doesn't support his thesis.

And yeah, I'm tired of people writing that they were told/are told/heard on ASR that 'all DACs sound the same'.
Especially as it's typically someone arguing from incredulity after they're told on ASR that their particular A and B aren't likely to sound different.
Or someone cranky because they see pushback against claims of audible DAC difference so often here.

I leave open the possibility ('almost never') that there's a post where someone on ASR foolishly or ignorantly or maybe just lazily really DID write, 'all DACs sound the same', no qualifiers.

But I've been here eight years and none leap to mind.

 

[antcollinet]

And yeah, I'm tired of people writing that they were told/are told/heard on ASR that 'all DACs sound the same'.

Standard straw man argument.

 

[Speedskater]

All good DACs sound the same.
So if a DAC sounds different, it's not a good DAC.