• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Also this. The instrument that caught my attention was a tambourine. It sounded... like a tambourine. Not like distorted hash. Another track that caught my attention was a well-recorded piano. Again, it sounded like a piano. I'll let someone else pour out the flowery superlatives if they want. What I heard was the instruments, not something that sounded like a recording of the instruments.

Does that make sense?


No. At best you should only hear what is on the recording. o_O Anything else is in YOUR mind.
 

rebbiputzmaker

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Messages
1,099
Likes
463
No. At best you should only hear what is on the recording. o_O Anything else is in YOUR mind.
Anyone who hears something is hearing things. You can only hear nothing. When you hear nothing then it is something.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Anyone who hears something is hearing things. You can only hear nothing. When you hear nothing then it is something.


The poster said he heard something that did not sound like a recording. Well he was listening to a recording.

Where did what he heard come from if not the recording and why didn't it sound true but better?o_O
 
Last edited:

rebbiputzmaker

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Messages
1,099
Likes
463
The poster said he heard something that did not sound like a recording. Well he was listening to a recording.

Where did what he heard come from if not the recording?o_O
Dac A sounds one way, dac B sound different? This cannot be, the listener must be hearing things, totally delusional!
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Dac A sounds one way, dac B sound different? This cannot be, the listener must be hearing things, totally delusional!

So, DACs can add missing aspects of performance to recordings that aren't in the recordings to begin with? Read the poster's comments, again.
 

tili

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Messages
48
Likes
16
Location
buyers remorse land
We have very different perceptions of price compared. The people in the /r/Headphones purchase advice sticky have budgets of less than $300 for a headphone and DAC/Amp. I consider <$100 to be the most important range for a USB DAC or headphone amplifier at the moment and this price range is likely good enough that better measuring equipment is not audibly different anyway. In one of my original posts I made a list of products that would cover every use case I could think of related to headphones and the majority is less than $100. Combinations like a Fiio Q1 and Schiit Magni 3 could cover 99% of headphone use cases for a cost of $150 and in most cases the $60 Fiio Q1 may be enough. But it's important to understand the limits of each product at this price range and as the price lowers the number of trade offs the consumer has to consider increases.

I don't find the Topping D30 to be particularly competitive on price. If a FX Audio X6 at half the price is good then that is a far better recommendation and covers the USB, optical, coaxial input requirement that some people have and is currently being covered by the Schiit Modi 2U or Topping D30 at twice the price.

At the moment people are often spending $200+ on a DAC and Amp which is a huge chunk of their budget that could be put into the headphone. My hope has always been to get people to spend 25% of that amount and have measurements to show that what they are buying is actually good.

Mathematically

(Amount of money saved from cheaper purchase) * (Number of people) = A lot of money

The market is massive at the low end. If quality products can be found cheaper it adds up to a huge amount of money saved overall which means people can buy better headphones for less overall budget. To me the market above this price point just doesn't matter because they are buying based upon subjective impressions and that won't change.

My concern is that people here get obsessed over a $500 DAC with no feature advantage to justify it. Chasing better numbers is worthless if you've crossed the audibility threshold at $400 less. If someone really cares they can buy a Benchmark DAC3 for the best numbers on the test bench.



It's sarcasm.
exactly my thoughts. this is exactly why I am here. the whistleblowing comes right after
 

SchwarzeWolke

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
94
Likes
82
After maybe reading one third of this thread and reading a little over at SBAF, I have some questions out of curiosity:
Thanks Amir, for comparing your measurements with the one from Atomicbob. For that, I have two questions:
1. How do you explain the differences in the jitter test? I'm really an amateur and I don't get any of the details of the test. The only thing I noticed are the different frequencies at which you and AB are measuring. Does this influence the outcome of the test?
2. AB always says something about "is a 16bit DAC and therefore stellar performance if fed with 24bit". For me, this sounds like "OK, might be true, I have to trust your competencies as I'm an amateur and doesn't know better" and this is not enough for me. Can you explain me the test and what AB is referring to? (In laymans terms of course :oops:)

To the response of Jason that you have to wait xx hours:
Sorry, you or Mike designed a pile of Schiit (Yeah! I've done it!!!!:cool:) It reminds me of Apple, who claims that this is not a bug but you're holding your iPhone wrong...
Come on, a product should be designed that you could use it under several conditions and the product should adapt to your behaviour and not the other way around.
Just read a little about Poka Yoke the Multibit-DACs from Schiit seem to be designed like "if you don't do that, you're screwed" which is contrary to Poka Yoke.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,550
Location
Seattle Area
After maybe reading one third of this thread and reading a little over at SBAF, I have some questions out of curiosity:
Thanks Amir, for comparing your measurements with the one from Atomicbob. For that, I have two questions:
1. How do you explain the differences in the jitter test? I'm really an amateur and I don't get any of the details of the test. The only thing I noticed are the different frequencies at which you and AB are measuring. Does this influence the outcome of the test?
Yes, it can very much. Some DACs take shortcuts where their 44.1 Khz clock is better than their 48 kHz. My testing is at 48 kHz for this reason. I wish I still had the unit and could measure it at 44.1 Khz to see if that makes a difference.

For now, there are some other differences. I post dBr A which is a relative measurement allowing me to show the signal peak at 0 dB. He doesn't and as such his main signal is at -3 dB. So in all of his jitter measurements the jitter spikes show up 3 dB lower than what they would in my measurements.

Jitter is directly proportional to the input frequency. So all else being equal, the 12 Khz j-test signal brings out more jitter at 48 Khz sampling than 11.05 at 44.1 Khz.

But here is the key thing: once a device is susceptible to jitter, then the device outputting the signal becomes significant. His analyzer generating the digital signal is different than mine and so is his computer. This has been abundantly clear in the case of Schiit Modi 2 where even the length of the USB cable made a difference in its jitter measurements!!! See: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/

index.php


Speaking of Modi 2 they too disputed my measurements with their much better looking one. Turns out they used a USB decrapifier which they did not document when the measurements were posted.

Indeed I have shown measurements of Schiit Bifrost where mere activity on the PC changes its output! See https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...puter-activity-can-impact-dac-performance.22/

Here is what happens when you just change the media player that plays the identical file. Now you see jitter:

i-V5DHTcN-L.png


Now you don't!

i-zcQnHqG-L.png


Of course well designed DACs which is the vast majority of what is out there show no such variations.

Finally, I tested the DAC two ways: using USB from my computer and S/PDIF generated by my analyzer. These represent two different sources completely and yet the problems remain. This rules out a lot of potential errors.

2. AB always says something about "is a 16bit DAC and therefore stellar performance if fed with 24bit". For me, this sounds like "OK, might be true, I have to trust your competencies as I'm an amateur and doesn't know better" and this is not enough for me. Can you explain me the test and what AB is referring to? (In laymans terms of course :oops:)
In a nutshell, he is grading on a curve. He is saying because this girl is good looking, let's give her an A even though she got a C in tests. :D

The DAC chip used in this device is a 16-bit DAC chip because ladder DACs are hard to build at higher precision. For 20-30 years even the cheapest DACs around are 24 bits. He is saying let's forget about everything else and score this DAC as the only specimen, i.e. a 16 bit DAC. There, he ignores his own linearity measurements that show accuracy starting to drop off at just 11 bits, and glitches are visible even with 16 bit signals, and gives it an excellent score. This makes no sense. The alternative to this DAC are others that are 24 bits. We need to compare them apple to apple, not cater to limitation of the design and create all new scoring for it.

The fact that this multi-hundred dollar DAC uses a limited resolution DAC chip is the manufacturer's problem, not ours to make excuses for. Bottom line is that it cannot reproduce 16 bit signals faithfully let alone 24 bit anything. If a manufacturer makes a car that has an anemic engine we don't say it is excellent because all they could muster is a 1 liter engine. If their 0 to 60 times are slower than another car at the same price, it is not our problem that they did not have a more powerful engine to put in there.

So hopefully this is clear. I should add that I now have another Schiit Multibit DAC, the Modi 2 Multibit. So we will be taking another bite out of this Apple. :) Stay tuned...
 

drconopoima

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
51
Likes
40
his own linearity measurements that show accuracy starting to drop off at just 11 bits, and glitches are visible even with 16 bit signals
I think you meant to write glitches visible even with 12 bit signals (glitches at -70 dB sine waves, or a bit below 12-bit=-72dB)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,550
Location
Seattle Area

gvl

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
3,427
Likes
3,982
Location
SoCal
I'm late to the party and will not say anything about how good or bad Schiit multi-bit DACs are, however, assuming the linearity test results are valid, it surely rubs me the wrong way they sell it as a "feature" that their super-duper Mega Burrito closed-form digital filter preserves the original samples when they can't even reproduce them faithfully.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,550
Location
Seattle Area
I'm late to the party and will not say anything about how good or bad Schiit multi-bit DACs are, however, assuming the linearity test results are valid, it surely rubs me the wrong way they sell it as a "feature" that their super-duper Mega Burrito closed-form digital filter preserves the original samples when they can't even reproduce them faithfully.
Yes, it is quite ironic to read their marque marketing statement of bit-exactness and purity when the underlying DAC can't reproduce the voltages it is told to reproduce at lower levels.

I wonder what test if any they performed to arrive at the conclusion of there being bit-exact reproduction.
 

gvl

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
3,427
Likes
3,982
Location
SoCal
Yes, it is quite ironic to read their marque marketing statement of bit-exactness and purity when the underlying DAC can't reproduce the voltages it is told to reproduce at lower levels.

I wonder what test if any they performed to arrive at the conclusion of there being bit-exact reproduction.

I don't believe they claim full bit-exact reproduction, only that the digital filter preserves the original samples in isolation. I don't see much of the practical value of that filter property given the imperfectness of the downstream hardware, but it surely looks nice in the marketing material. There are likely other more important characteristics of the filter like the phase response across frequencies, hopefully they got that part right.
 

restorer-john

Grand Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
12,588
Likes
38,291
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
I wonder what test if any they performed to arrive at the conclusion of there being bit-exact reproduction.

The marketing test of course!

Don't need no fancy equipment, just a bunch of people in a room, blue-sky thinking, getting all their ducks in a row. Granularity isn't the space they are moving forward in- it's all about picking the low hanging fruit and cascading down to a product opening and target demographic that thrives on that type of bullschiit.

Seriously, looking under the hood is not the conversation we need right now- I say, just sprinkle the magic, and as always, my door is open on this if we need to get things moving a little faster through the sales and delivery pipeline.

:)
 

Palladium

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
631
Likes
769
The marketing test of course!

Don't need no fancy equipment, just a bunch of people in a room, blue-sky thinking, getting all their ducks in a row. Granularity isn't the space they are moving forward in- it's all about picking the low hanging fruit and cascading down to a product opening and target demographic that thrives on that type of bullschiit.

Seriously, looking under the hood is not the conversation we need right now- I say, just sprinkle the magic, and as always, my door is open on this if we need to get things moving a little faster through the sales and delivery pipeline.

:)

I'll be in charge of "deeply motivating operators of designated special interest audio websites" to "handle problematic inquisitive individuals".
 

Dana reed

Active Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
244
Likes
245
Yes, it is quite ironic to read their marque marketing statement of bit-exactness and purity when the underlying DAC can't reproduce the voltages it is told to reproduce at lower levels.

I wonder what test if any they performed to arrive at the conclusion of there being bit-exact reproduction.
What I wonder about regarding the multibit and their claims of "time and frequency optimized closed form digital filter" is the time-domain optimization. This seems somewhat akin to what Chord claim from their approach to using FPGA and putting in tens of thousands of taps. How can this be measured? I guess not using FFT, since that only shows frequency reproduction, noise, and jitter/distortion. Somehow you'd have to measure the timing of an impulse response, and how that compared across different DACs
 

Jimster480

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
2,880
Likes
2,033
Location
Tampa Bay
What I wonder about regarding the multibit and their claims of "time and frequency optimized closed form digital filter" is the time-domain optimization. This seems somewhat akin to what Chord claim from their approach to using FPGA and putting in tens of thousands of taps. How can this be measured? I guess not using FFT, since that only shows frequency reproduction, noise, and jitter/distortion. Somehow you'd have to measure the timing of an impulse response, and how that compared across different DACs

that would that would actually be a very interesting way to test a DAC
 
Top Bottom