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Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

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amirm

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If you are buying random cheap products from anywhere it's probably not going to turn out well. SMSL and Topping could well have been selling terrible products 5 years ago and could well be doing that today. At the same time some of their products may also be very good. I suspect a lot of their products are designs off a shelf by an OEM which is completely fine if the design is good. No need to reinvent wheels.
The thing about Topping is that they measure their equipment and sell on that basis. For the reason, they already have done the testing that I do so no surprises come out. I don't have an opinion of SMSL until I test more of them (which I have in the pipeline).
 
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Candlesticks

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Good to know. Was this sorted out or do I need to test for it from here on?

Schiit amplifiers have relays now.

I believe the reasoning given by Schiit at the time was that the DC voltage on turn off was much higher than on their books. The reaction at the time was very similar to the reaction now. Shoot the messenger.
 
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amirm

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@Dismayed , why these aggressive words?

However, it's interesting that we're on the same page regarding schitty products, but on different planets when we try and understand why @rebbiputzmaker thinks the way he and many more schiit people do.
You two both know a lot more about economics theory than I do. :) I hope you shake hands and not get after each other's throats. This is not the thread for it anyway.

Somehow we have gotten rather contentious with each other. Let's take a deep breath.

I will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so, measuring some gear on location. So please let's not have fights and feuds. :)
 

drconopoima

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If you are buying random cheap products from anywhere it's probably not going to turn out well. SMSL and Topping could well have been selling terrible products 5 years ago and could well be doing that today. At the same time some of their products may also be very good. I suspect a lot of their products are designs off a shelf by an OEM which is completely fine if the design is good. No need to reinvent wheels.

Sure, but to have such a strong opinion of unmeasured equipment is not very rational:

"Audinst, HA-Info, AudioGD, Matrix, Aune, SMSL, etc. Most of those just seem to throw parts on PC boards and cross their fingers nobody will properly test them"

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/11/x-fi-usb-dac.html?showComment=1323383693613#c848434041028555395

As far as I know, he never measured any of the brands mentioned in this comment. And instead, very ironically, he got a bad impression of Chinese audio manufacturing from Fiio, that isn't listed in the comment, because he tested 4 or 5 of their products and 3 got 'mediocre' results while 2 got Good results.

Good to know. Was this sorted out or do I need to test for it from here on?

It would be good to test with the first two or so Schiit amplifiers that you get, if they were purchased after 2013, since according to Jason's "Schiit happened" blog posts they started including relays on everything after the fact. If two amplifiers post-2013 don't show the issue, I think you could stop testing and they are actually resolved.
 

Thomas savage

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You two both know a lot more about economics theory than I do. :) I hope you shake hands and not get after each other's throats. This is not the thread for it anyway.

Somehow we have gotten rather contentious with each other. Let's take a deep breath.

I will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so, measuring some gear on location. So please let's not have fights and feuds. :)
Come on man I’d just put the popcorn in the microwave...:D
 

DonH56

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What a mess. Isn't it about time to just split out the chaff and move it to Fight Club?
 
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amirm

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What a mess. Isn't it about time to just split out the chaff and move it to Fight Club?
That would be work for Thomas but he is busy eating popcorn.... :D
 

DonH56

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Maybe if we threw some caramel on it? Little sugar boost to speed things along? :)

I was going to get a DAC, but not if I can't surf the web and listen to music at the same time. Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?
 

Thomas savage

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Maybe if we threw some caramel on it? Little sugar boost to speed things along? :)

I was going to get a DAC, but not if I can't surf the web and listen to music at the same time. Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?
I had 24 hours off, at a ‘go go penguin ‘ gig with friends ... :eek::D

We’ve had nothing to add here for ages, I would of shut the thread awaiting new information to avoid the enviable drift but I get hammered for closing threads.

Plus we have a few new members contributing here, thought I’d give a bit of slack to encourage participation.
 

svart-hvitt

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Maybe if we threw some caramel on it? Little sugar boost to speed things along? :)

I was going to get a DAC, but not if I can't surf the web and listen to music at the same time. Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?

You wrote: «Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?»

That’s a good question, even if it’s off topic.

Ideally you’d want to have a computer doing all the heavy...computations...while hardware is strictly specialized for work that cannot be softwarized. So a dedicated heavy duty computer makes sense.

PS: What is a computer varies from application to next. Apple’s HomePod uses an A8 processor to do its «magic» (no specs or recipies are given). However, if you want to converter to DSD 1024 and apply filters you need a monster of a computer.
 
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Jinjuku

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Thanks for the reply. My sense is that some folks on this forum are more focused on which piece of equipment measures better at the expense of all else...potentially even their own listening experience?!

Doubtful. It's just one facet of the evaluation process.

I would most likely be filtering out equipment with obvious issues. Then subjectively evaluate the rest.

I use the Emotiva DC-1 because it's also a pre-amp with Analog inputs and a top shelf HP Amp. While may not be the technically cleanest, what it does exhibit is unquestionably below audible thresh holds and what it does show isn't of any real egregious engineering oversight.
 

DonH56

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You wrote: «Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?»

That’s a good question, even if it’s off topic.

Ideally you’d want to have a computer doing all the heavy...computations...while hardware is strictly specialized for work that cannot be softwarized. So a dedicated heavy duty computer makes sense.

My "heavy-duty" computer is what I run simulations and mathematical programs on. My son's "heavy-duty" computer runs games. We both use them for most everything else; I don't really want a bunch of dedicated computers around that I have to support. With a modicum of buffering I would not expect audio to be a heavy load, but it is real-time, so takes some attention. If the DAC box has little or no buffer memory, or does not have an asynchronous clock interface, to account for the computer doing something else whilst listening I would think that would be a poor design. They can certainly argue that you shouldn't be doing anything else when listening. That is rarely the case for me.

I thought the thread had diverged into why some DACs work better in the presence of computer operations and latency. But, I am no longer sure what the heck the topic of this thread is anymore: a Schiit'y review, technical debate, arguing and name calling? Whatever it is, it ain't much fun to me (and of course that is what this forum is all about, fun for me, right? :) )

As for focusing on listening (as raised by another poster), I wish I had time for more, but I sincerely doubt anyone reading does not care about listening. Measurements tend to be hard to find, almost impossible to discuss (live or online), and provide some indication about the quality of a product. If two products cost and sound similar, but one measures better and is better built, why would I buy the other? There are plenty of sites to discuss how things sound to the nth degree, and indeed there are discussions here about that, but it is not why most of us are here. What I like in sound may not be what you like, but if we start with a product that measures well chances are we can use it to produce the sound we want. Measurements provide a starting point for developing an understanding of what they mean to listening.

IMO! - Don
 

Blumlein 88

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Maybe if we threw some caramel on it? Little sugar boost to speed things along? :)

I was going to get a DAC, but not if I can't surf the web and listen to music at the same time. Does everyone have a dedicated audio PC these days?
Does nobody do audiophile karaoke?
 

GearMe

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Thanks for your comments. What we look like in this moment is as you describe. But that doesn't describe the totality of the history of the forum and its missions.

If you look in past threads, you see plenty of listening tests presented and tons of discussions on results of such. See an example of an article I wrote on differing sounds of amplifiers in blind tests: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

In much of my reviews I comment on psychoacoustics of the distortions seen and in most cases I point out that what is seen is not audible distortion.

Measurements do have a lot of power though. They are independent of one's ears. And importantly are affirmation or rejection of the manufacturer's advertising as to performance of their products. In the specific instance Schiit BiFrost Multibit, I think most people assume they are getting a superior product not only in sound but also objective performance. They think that ladder DACs are fundamentally more accurate, have lower noise, etc. My data shows that this is not the case. That is news to many so it has gotten a ton of attention.

Secondly, blind tests are hard to organize if we don't know what we are testing. If you randomly tested 128 kbps MP3 against the source, you can easily find millions of tracks that would be transparent to many listeners. But pick tracks that are designed to show weaknesses in its design and you will find that people can in double blind tests tell the difference. In the case of DACs, no such characterization has been done due to lack of measurements. So creating bling tests would literally be line blind driving.

In the past I have done blind tests of DACs and as you say, differences are impossible to spot outside of the DACs that bleed noise from computers. So again, it is not due to lack of trying or interest. Our history as a forum reflects that balanced view, but not in the short term.

Finally, there is such an incredible vacuum of objective data out there that our measurements are filling. The demand is very high to have such information so a lot of people are paying attention to them. Few people are in a position to blind test multiple DACs prior to purchase and are hungry for any information to separate products.

Certainly didn't mean to imply that measurements were all that this forum is about...it was more an observation of some folks' comments in this particular thread.

Nice article by the way...took me back to my early 2 channel days. :) I traded my stacked DQ-10s for those exact Acoustats (bad move); eventually moved on to stacked Quads and then Magnepans.

Agreed about measurements...they are a useful arrow in the quiver for evaluating products/companies/etc. and I appreciate when independent reviewers make the effort to do this and publish their results.

In Schiit's case, the Bimby distortion measurements are called out on their own site as being slightly inferior (THD: <0.005%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.008%, CCIR) compared to the Bifrost DS (THD: <0.003%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.004%, CCIR) and Modi DS (THD: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.003%, CCIR) models. So...if people are assuming a superior objective performance, then they're not reading Schiit's published specs.

When I bought my Valhalla 2, I was well aware that it was one of the poorest 'performing' amps that Schiit makes. That said, it's a great pairing for my Senns and Beyers!

Similarly, I knew their Multibit products had 'lesser' measurements. I bought the Bimby because I was interested in the Multibit technology conceptually, it was upgradeable, and, tbh, it visually matches the Valhalla 2. :eek:

Regarding the Bifrost in question, it makes sense to me to get it repaired if it's 'broken' and re-measure it. If nothing changes in the measurements, then at least everyone will know. That said, educating people on why they should care about the measurements when the DAC sounds just fine to them may be a tough ask...

Your comments on DBTs for DAC differences confirm what I suspected. Not a surprise really. Again, nice you made the effort to explore this and document it! As you stated, consumers don't have the time, resources, etc. to perform these tests...so any help from reviewers on this front is greatly appreciated.
 

RayDunzl

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We’ve had nothing to add here for ages, I would of shut the thread awaiting new information to avoid the enviable drift but I get hammered for closing threads.

3%2Bno%2Bservices.JPG
 

tili

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so anyone doing objective measurements is labeled as nwavguy?
also i just learned that we are all the same person using vpn to create an illusion of a "troll army"
 
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Eric Auer

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I'm nwavguy and so is my wife.

Eric
 
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