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Measurable aspects of sound perception

Wes

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No, P. Zui - I disagree with you.

Don't confuse scientific data with preaching.

I don't know who took advantage of your lack of technical understanding to mislead you about cables, but it is likely to have originated with someone trying to make a fast buck off of you.
 

Darkweb

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Since we already know everything there is to know about the brain and hearing, perhaps we could shift gears and figure out if this salt and butter on my popcorn for this thread will give me cancer or not.
 

majingotan

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It’s important to keep this in mind because these people likely have never heard a system “disappear” in the room and leave you with a real holographic performance of a recording. They have no frame of reference.

It’s far easier to achieve this with headphones yet head stage just feels so artificial to me

By taking time in placing my near field monitors and taking bedroom acoustics and room mode correction into account, I was able to achieve this same phenomenon with speakers 0.6 meters away from me. Layering and sound stage are just far superior with near field speakers IMO
 

RayDunzl

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I viewed an interesting lecture of Rob Watts that very important information for perception might be on a level of -180 dB or lower............


Shoutometer says

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OP
pozz

pozz

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Haha... so is Erwin's cat alive or not ?
Heisenberg and Schrodinger were speeding down the highway when they were pulled over by a state cop, who walks over and raps on their window.
"Do you know how fast you were going?"
"No, but I knew where I was," said Heisenberg.
"You were going 150 miles an hour!"
"Fine. Now we're lost."
The cop decides to investigate the vehicle, starting with the trunk.
"What's this? A dead cat?"
"Well it is now!" said Schrodinger.
 

maxxevv

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.... but when the cop went to the front to escort the guys to take a look at the boot, reopening it again, the cat was alive and well ....

Erwin : "But its alive and well now ."
 
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pozz

pozz

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Take it that you can hear an infinite bandwidth, infinite dynamic range and an infinite temporal resolution. You can hear light moving across the room. You can hear the Earth turning on its axis. You can hear the reverberations of the concert you attended last week in perfect fidelity (and greater spaciousness). Etc. Etc. At some point introducing limits becomes relevant. So how are these things to be determined, what is really happening? Dynamic range is disturbances in barometric pressure, bandwidth is sensitivity to those disturbances by frequency and reverberation by the decay of those disturbances over time. Perhaps all of this stuff feels nebulous and the language too jargonish, but the question of limits is important. You can chop out a whole load of things pretty quickly, and then the details start mattering.

Chomsky said once that everyone at MIT knows the classical laws and the names behind them (Newton...) but no one actually reads them. They just memorize the formulas and learn the fundamental relationships and move on. So why not read the ancient texts on sound? Reading those books is like being witness to the evolution of knowledge, and will actually clarify the why of things, like why it became necessary to delve develop specialized apparatus for experiments, which eventually led to audio analyzers.

The early Greeks had no concept of frequency, intensity or wavelength, a confusion which persisted until the Renaissance, with the most authoritative texts having it that, the harder the impact to an object, the higher sound produced (instead of being louder, more intense), or the faster the flautist blows into the mouth of his flute, the higher the note (again, louder or more intense, but also appreciating the effects of under/overblowing techniques). Read the very astute observation by the Arab thinker Al-Jurjani around the end of the 14th century that they can define no mathematical relationship for pitch between strings of various lengths despite hearing the difference because they have no practical means for measuring tension or accurately determining thickness. That's equivalent to saying: before we can move further with this science we have to figure out these very specific problems, problems which revolve around accurate measurement.

Back to the the topic at hand. @PeterZui Hold yourself to your claims: if you really believe that electrical measurements are not that important, then study what, exactly, it's possible to measure and with what level of accuracy. Be precise about your criticisms. Soundstage and perception, as topics, are too broad. You could ask generally:
  • How accurately a person can localize a sound on the horizontal plane, on the vertical plane, or in terms of depth: Are people equally accurate at vertical localization as horizontal? Is vertical stereo possible? Are people pinpoint accurate or are there tolerances within a range of degrees? Beyond a certain distance, does a person's accuracy begin to diminish?
  • If perception of timbre is related to transient response: What happens when a signal is compressed broadband?
  • If perception of muddiness, clarity or presence can be correlated to frequency response: Does an upwards spectral tilt toward the high frequencies just mean that everything sounds brighter, or does something happen to the overall perception of quality as well?
  • What's louder: a moderate-level single tone at one frequency, or wide-band but low-level white noise? Is it possible to set levels so that they seem equally loud? If so, then at what levels? Does the frequency of the tone matter? Is it possible to set the single tone at one level and then adjust the bandwidth of noise until they are equally loud without changing the noise's level? Does the tone always have to be louder than the noise to be audible, or not?
  • What's the smallest controllable difference you can identify consistently and easily? Are you equally good at perceiving pitch, duration, level, and sequence (as in a musical sequence, aka the strength of your auditory memory)?
Then compare your answers to what's been measured. That list of questions is nothing outlandish, even familiar. I think it's a good representation of your concerns and, importantly, every aspect can be compared and measured using very simple instrumentation (a protractor, a ruler, a computer to set levels and EQ). If you cover this stuff then maybe the APx555 graphs won't be so abstract.
 
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Wombat

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How about knowing what one is talking about and knowing when one doesn't?

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Wombat

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Since we already know everything there is to know about the brain and hearing, perhaps we could shift gears and figure out if this salt and butter on my popcorn for this thread will give me cancer or not.

Uh-huh. Duh.
 

Thomas savage

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Since we already know everything there is to know about the brain and hearing, perhaps we could shift gears and figure out if this salt and butter on my popcorn for this thread will give me cancer or not.
You can test things without fully understanding the ins and outs of something's workings. This happens in neurology and neuropsychology all the time not that anyone here is claiming to have advanced understanding in that field.

It's remarkable in your rush to seem clever you achieve the opposite.

Too much Popcorn gives me gas.
 

Wombat

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You can test things without fully understanding the ins and outs of something's workings. This happens in neurology and neuropsychology all the time not that anyone here is claiming to have advanced understanding in that field.

It's remarkable in your rush to seem clever you achieve the opposite.

Too much Popcorn gives me gas.


Puffed-up corn. Yeah.
 

Thomas savage

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Knowledge is fluid , I'd look less for absolute conviction and so called truth and more for the evolution of ones understanding.

There's those who are interested in furthering their understanding of audio and there are those who's only wish is to project their assumed intellect and have it affirmed and stroked.

One Way creates good content that goes beyond the folks contributing and leaves a path for others to walk and learn the other is entirely self-serving and not much good for anybody else.
 

Wombat

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Lack of knowledge and understanding applies to us all. ASR is here to provide knowledge and understanding, in a scientific way, for the benefit of members.

Resistance to knowledge and understanding that conflicts with personal opinions is entrenched in some who are seemingly impervious to reason. Being unable to support personal opinions and posting diversionary nonsense replies, often denigrating those who contribute meaningful content, should be called out.

So!
 
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solderdude

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Solderdude f.e. still does not believe that an other person says he can hear a difference in cabling because solderdude's truth says it is technically impossible. In my experience different cabling makes a important difference in audio quality (call it perception).
From a technical perspective the Electro-Magnetic waves propagation through the cabling and it's reflections on both ends will differ with other conductive materials, other isolation materials and other geometry.
So from my perspective there IS technically a BIG difference between two cables !

Yes, all cables measure differently, they all have different inductance, different capacitance, different resistance, different characteristic impedance, different isolation voltages, different geometries, even slightly different propagation speeds, different bandwidths, different susceptibilities/emission, different applications.
Technically there are differences between cables and can be measured far, far, far beyond any audible thresholds on various ways.
Your truth states because there are (measurable) differences between parameters and application of certain types of cables there must be audible differences ?

Sure when you use 10m of lamp cord for your low and varying impedance speakers you may get audible differences (due to resistance).
Sure when you use not suited wiring for certain types of signals they are not intended for you might get into certain problems.
Sure you can't just pick any type of wire and apply that in all circumstances.

Solderdude's 'truth' of course is incorrect and I agree I am biased.
On the other hand it seems like you only read what you wanted to read and disregarded that what you cannot explain to firm your grip in your truth.
You totally went past the experiments where people report (clear) differences when they are merely told or think another cable is used.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Do you realize that if Rob Watts is right, I have worry about what you are playing on your stereo as it will impact how mine sounds here just a few hundred miles from where you are. We are too close not to impact each other's listening pleasure. BTW, I was just playing some nice chamber music, so hopefully it didn't upset you too much if you were listening this late at night. I understand your musical tastes are more eclectic.
 

Wombat

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Do you realize that if Rob Watts is right, I have worry about what you are playing on your stereo as it will impact how mine sounds here just a few hundred miles from where you are. We are too close not to impact each other's listening pleasure. BTW, I was just playing some nice chamber music, so hopefully it didn't upset you too much if you were listening this late at night. I understand your musical tastes are more eclectic.

Oh, no. My AC/DC binge has someone, somewhere, wondering why the 2nd violin has shifted position.
whistle.gif
 

PeterZui

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Hi Guys, I caused a lot of reactions.

From my point of a view, many from individuals that did not have a lecture in quantum-mechanics, EM wave propagation/high frequency techniques and/or material science, ........ and state that they understand physics !

Let everyone believe what het wants; and as Richard Feymann said "Dare to doubt"

I don't think the majority on this site is looking foor good sound but is looking for an absolute truth.
Sorry to say; you will never find it.

This is my last post as I am looking for improved sound at home and did not find any useful advice here.

best, Peter
 

audiophile

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One cannot argue it from prior knowledge or personal experience but you can test it.
But can you rely on those tests that try to measure perception? Even strictly controlled DBTs cannot provide an absolute truth. Couple quotes to keep the thread going:

“In a famous example, tests in the early 1990s run by the Swedish National Radio Company on behalf of the EBU investigated the degradation wrought on music signals by various audio data-reduction algorithms (footnote 1). After several stages of "Triple Stimulus, Hidden Reference, Double-Blind" tests, with 60 expert listeners and over 20,000 individual presentations, two algorithms were pronounced as being good enough for the needs of broadcasters. Yet when the late Bart Locanthi auditioned one of these "winners" (footnote 2), he immediately detected a low-level whistle at 1.5kHz that had gone unnoticed in the formal tests! (See next page.)

This story nicely illustrates a basic tenet of Scientific Method: that a null result from a blind test does not mean that there isn't a difference, only that if there was one, it could not be detected under the specific conditions of that experiment. Yet the people organizing such tests don't want to admit that their time has been wasted, nor do they like to admit that their results are meaningless.” - John Atkinson


“Editor: I've been called many things in my job as an equipment and music reviewer, but "lucky coin" ("Letters," May 1989) is by far the most aggravating. I confronted David "all amplifiers sound the same" Clark at the June 1988 CES and told him that I could hear differences among amplifiers and, furthermore, that anyone who couldn't ought not be reviewing them. He countered that unless I could demonstrate my ability in a double-blind test, my assertion was groundless.

When he called a few months later asking if I'd organize a double-blind test at the AES, I jumped at the opportunity. I worked long and hard, with help from many people in the audio community, to set up a test that would satisfy the measurement freaks, and I believe we did. I took my own test just once (like every other participant) with David Clark in the room, and scored five out of five correct identifications. Not only did I correctly identify "same or different," I volunteered which amp was which and got that right four out of five times as well.

Good enough? No. Statistically insignificant, I was told by the dominant Dr. Stanley Lipshitz wing of the AES. "Lucky coin," I'm called by reader Dayton. There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy.” -
Michael Fremer
 

maxxevv

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Hi Guys, I caused a lot of reactions.

From my point of a view, many from individuals that did not have a lecture in quantum-mechanics, EM wave propagation/high frequency techniques and/or material science, ........ and state that they understand physics !

What makes you say so ? And what makes whatever you have mentioned here an authority in Quantum Mechanics and the rest who responded aren't ?

And how does human perception with the exception of gravity allude to quantum physics ?

Great claims need great proof. Else its just bovine digested discharge to the crowd here on these forums.
 
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