me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[LTig]

The 921 has a 12" bass unit, it is the 901 with a 16" and I had the same concern, mind you it also depends on the driver efficiency, and I don't know what that is.

Oops. I must have misread the Stereo article, I thought they wrote something about a 40cm woofer.

I keep vacillating between having a demo of Genelec 8351b with W371, the Geithain RL901K and telling myself not to be daft since what I have sounds fantastic already

Lead is not into temptation ...

Would the KH420 be able to cover your listening distance?

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I had a quick look, and looks like the 801K is approximately double the price of the 901K, ouch

It does beg the question how close 12-13k euro for 901K + 1k$ on a DSP (like SHD) can come to the Genelec W371 + 8351B combo which is 26k$ or so. It's half the cost!

 

[Frank Dernie]

I had a quick look, and looks like the 801K is approximately double the price of the 901K, ouch

It is a much more recent model but still, most of the other 3-way cardioid models are close in price making the 901 look best value, they have been making it a long time.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Would the KH420 be able to cover your listening distance?

Barely, but they are another I have been unnecessarily looking into!
I am listening to Sibelius at concert levels on my current almost 25 year old speakers and not finding it wanting...

 

[LTig]

Barely, but they are another I have been unnecessarily looking into!
I am listening to Sibelius at concert levels on my current almost 25 year old speakers and not finding it wanting...

Well then - never change a running system.

 

[Purité Audio]

My listening distance is at the top limit for the 901 so I had looked at 801 and 811 too but I think they are much more expensive and less well known, your comment on the 801 is therefore most welcome.

It would be much cheaper to move your seat nearer.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well then - never change a running system.

The worst thing is reading about something new, whatever it is. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[LTig]

The worst thing is reading about something new, whatever it is. Ignorance is bliss.

Just take a break ...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Just take a break ...

But I enjoy reading about stuff, I just have to remind myself how I came to have what I have now - a 2 year search for my "last speakers" and that I have yet to actually hear any I prefer yet means whatever I consider has to be auditioned.
I auditioned the horns I bought in a different room but since they couple the bass horn to the corner and the room was quite like mine I thought it was OK.
I was pretty sure I would prefer them to my existing ones but they are different rather than better, so I run both, depending on how I am feeling.

 

[TimVG]

It does beg the question how close 12-13k euro for 901K + 1k$ on a DSP (like SHD) can come to the Genelec W371 + 8351B combo which is 26k$ or so. It's half the cost!

How close from what point of view? Technically there's no doubt the newer offerings are better. What is 'good enough' though. I'm happy with my used Genelec 1032A speakers, even after hearing speakers costing many times more. Right now I'm building a large 2-way system with a 15" mid/bass driver in a cardioid cabinet and a narrow coverage horn, with a DSP crossover, just because I'm a bit bored due all of my other activities being cancelled for the time being. It should measure very well - for a fraction of the cost of any of these other systems.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

How close from what point of view? Technically there's no doubt the newer offerings are better. What is 'good enough' though. I'm happy with my used Genelec 1032A speakers, even after hearing speakers costing many times more. Right now I'm building a large 2-way system with a 15" mid/bass driver in a cardioid cabinet and a narrow coverage horn, with a DSP crossover, just because I'm a bit bored due all of my other activities being cancelled for the time being. It should measure very well - for a fraction of the cost of any of these other systems.

I was thinking from the casual (at home) listening point of view. I am not a pro nor do I have formal musical training.

 

[TimVG]

I was thinking from the casual (at home) listening point of view. I am not a pro nor do I have formal musical training.

I'm confident the newer offerings are better technically. If you care a lot about knowing what you have is state of the art from an objective point of view, by all means go that route. It should sound very good when setup properly. It doesn't mean however the Geithains won't be good, or less enjoyable, despite being technically less advanced or measuring a bit worse. I haven't seen detailed measurements of the 801K, but it sounded good to me that day, in that room. As I said, it's up to you to decide what is 'good enough'.

 

[LTig]

But I enjoy reading about stuff, I just have to remind myself how I came to have what I have now - a 2 year search for my "last speakers" and that I have yet to actually hear any I prefer yet means whatever I consider has to be auditioned.
I auditioned the horns I bought in a different room but since they couple the bass horn to the corner and the room was quite like mine I thought it was OK.
I was pretty sure I would prefer them to my existing ones but they are different rather than better, so I run both, depending on how I am feeling.
View attachment 110155

I remember having seen the pic of the horn speaker, but what brand/model are the other ones?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I remember having seen the pic of the horn speaker, but what brand/model are the other ones?

Goldmung Epilog 1&2, no longer current.
I got them soon after they were released after auditioning a lot of speakers they won the last audition against the B&W Nautilus which I very much liked the styling of.

 

[richard12511]

I had the issue, the tested Geithain 921K got the highest rating of a "bookshelf" speaker ever, even higher than of its larger and older sibling, the famous 901K.
A good friend of mine got soon after his pair 921K which replaced his also great Neumann KH420 and he enjoys the Geithain more and not only for their easier to place in room cardioid bass. It's a shame that they are so hard to find and hear at dealers even here in Germany.
Edit: Here is the review PDF https://www.me-geithain.de/de/assets/media/products/studio/RL921K/Stereoplay 05-2020 RL921K.pdf

Does cardioid bass below work below say 200Hz in a typical home environment? Below 100Hz? I really don't understand the physics tbh, but from what I've read, below where the modal region starts, cardioid doesn't really work because it's the steady state response of the room that we hear. From what I understand, we're super insensitive to timing differences, and all cardioid really does is change the steady state response. @napilopez 's in room measurements of the D&D 8C look like the cardioid response really is helping, but I've seen others(who seem to know what they're talking about) say that's just chance, and whether cardioid is a positive or a negative will depend on the room.

I definitely need to do some reading to better understand these physics myself. It will definitely influence future purchase decisions. If cardioid does work down low, that makes speakers like the 921k, Kii + BXT, and W371A more appealing for me. One thing I like about the W371 is that it gives options. It has a cardioid mode down to 50Hz, but it also has a null steering mode to reduce null magnitudes.

The 921k extends directivity the lowest of the 3 though, going 20Hz lower. It's almost full range directive . One other thing I notice about those measurements is that the 921k has both deeper extension than the 8361, as well as boosted bass(above neutral). Outside of the bass, it looks as neutral as the Genelec. I believe Tool says that people "mostly" prefer anechoic neutral outside of the bass, but bass level is very much a matter of taste. I honestly think I'm part of the crowd that prefers a bass that's a little bit more than neutral, but not too much.

If anyone knows reading material to help me better understand the physics of bass and directive bass in a home environment, I'd love suggestions.

 

[richard12511]

It depends a bit on the periphery, I would imagine.
The edge of the driver won't be as effective as the middle so a shape with a lot of periphery for a given area of diaphragm is unlikely to be as effective as a circle, so I would guess the very narrow drivers in the "ones" will not be as effective as a round driver of the same area, in extremis a very long driver with a 1" width but the same area as a round 8" would have more surround than diaphragm and it is difficult to imagine it being any good, but that is me as experienced in fluid dynamics rather than an acoustician, so I could be wrong.

That definitely makes logical sense to me.

 

[thewas]

Does cardioid bass below work below say 200Hz in a typical home environment? Below 100Hz? I really don't understand the physics tbh, but from what I've read, below where the modal region starts, cardioid doesn't really work because it's the steady state response of the room that we hear. From what I understand, we're super insensitive to timing differences, and all cardioid really does is change the steady state response. @napilopez 's in room measurements of the D&D 8C look like the cardioid response really is helping, but I've seen others(who seem to know what they're talking about) say that's just chance, and whether cardioid is a positive or a negative will depend on the room.

I also think that more studies are needed, to see if and what difference in perception there is in "small rooms" and if we only perceive the steady state.
What can be quite surely said though is that a cardioid bass reduces the need for room correction and also the problems of the SBIR dip due to the front wall which can't be corrected via EQ.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe and perhaps Martijn might confirm that he felt he would get ‘more bang for buck’ creating a cardioid response through the mids than cardioid at lower frequencies with the accompanying requisite real estate.
I remember comparing here the D&D 8Ms ( non cardioid ) to the 8Cs and the 8Cs were definitely less congested, similarly I didn’t really detect any advantage to the GEs bass cardioid response compare to the 8Cs, again the 8Cs were less congested.
Ideally always you really need to compare side-by side in your own room.
Keith

 

[Deleted member 4708]

In another thread I saw the SPL measurements for 8361A. How is the SPL measurement done? Is that a sweep or pink noise?
Here is where I am coming from: With a W371A subwoofer, when crossing over at 200Hz (for sake of argument) should I expect better 200-320Hz (320 is the crossover to mid) SPL than depicted in that measurement?

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Does cardioid bass below work below say 200Hz in a typical home environment? Below 100Hz? I really don't understand the physics tbh, but from what I've read, below where the modal region starts, cardioid doesn't really work because it's the steady state response of the room that we hear. From what I understand, we're super insensitive to timing differences, and all cardioid really does is change the steady state response. @napilopez 's in room measurements of the D&D 8C look like the cardioid response really is helping, but I've seen others(who seem to know what they're talking about) say that's just chance, and whether cardioid is a positive or a negative will depend on the room.

I definitely need to do some reading to better understand these physics myself. It will definitely influence future purchase decisions. If cardioid does work down low, that makes speakers like the 921k, Kii + BXT, and W371A more appealing for me. One thing I like about the W371 is that it gives options. It has a cardioid mode down to 50Hz, but it also has a null steering mode to reduce null magnitudes.

The 921k extends directivity the lowest of the 3 though, going 20Hz lower. It's almost full range directive . One other thing I notice about those measurements is that the 921k has both deeper extension than the 8361, as well as boosted bass(above neutral). Outside of the bass, it looks as neutral as the Genelec. I believe Tool says that people "mostly" prefer anechoic neutral outside of the bass, but bass level is very much a matter of taste. I honestly think I'm part of the crowd that prefers a bass that's a little bit more than neutral, but not too much.

If anyone knows reading material to help me better understand the physics of bass and directive bass in a home environment, I'd love suggestions.

Directivity makes a difference (measurable) also at low frequencies, but different does not necessarily mean improved.

When the location of the sound source is very close to boundaries - as when a bass-system is placed along the front wall - the wall in itself becomes part of the source, and thus will not be a problem rather than acting as a part of the system and providing both gain and improved frequency response smoothness. In this situation, a bass source with reduced radiation to the rear will not give any improvement.

The 100-200Hz range is tricky in small rooms. A speaker system with separate bass-system placed close to boundaries combined with main speakers with full-range directivity control makes it a lot easier. Truly good performance requires acoustic absorption in that range, regardless of what speaker system is in use.