me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[Deleted member 4708]

Here are the measurements from stereoplay for Genelec 8361A:

compare with the Geithain 921k:

 

[Frank Dernie]

Thanks, my question is, can 2 smaller woofers with the exact same surface area of a bigger single unit woofer be as good and as accurate and will have the same amount of bass output as a bigger single woofer.

It depends a bit on the periphery, I would imagine.
The edge of the driver won't be as effective as the middle so a shape with a lot of periphery for a given area of diaphragm is unlikely to be as effective as a circle, so I would guess the very narrow drivers in the "ones" will not be as effective as a round driver of the same area, in extremis a very long driver with a 1" width but the same area as a round 8" would have more surround than diaphragm and it is difficult to imagine it being any good, but that is me as experienced in fluid dynamics rather than an acoustician, so I could be wrong.

 

[noobie1]

For those interested, I think this guy recorded a track played on Geithain 906 and Neumann KH120 and plays back so you can “blind test” over YouTube. Not in English.

Starts around 5:16:

 

[thewas]

It's much harder and expensive to ship to a different country to have it repaired, and I'm not sure about this but I doubt they guarantee having parts for 20-30 years after purchase like Genelec.

Since they manufacture almost everything their-selves (even the drivers) they repair almost everything that is even older, like for example almost 40 year old passive loudspeakers that were sold from the predecessor company in the GDR https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musikelectronic_Geithain

 

[thewas]

Here are the measurements from stereoplay for Genelec 8361A:

compare with the Geithain 921k:

Yes, for monitoring in a well acoustically treated studio I would probably chose the Genelec as its anechoically more neutral, for music enjoyment in a normal room probably the Geithain as its more euphonic and has a cardioid bass which reduces room interaction problems.
Also I can fully understand that living abroad you don't want to get into the risk since there is unfortunately no local agent or dealer, I probably wouldn't either.

 

[thewas]

For those interested, I think this guy recorded a track played on Geithain 906 and Neumann KH120 and plays back so you can “blind test” over YouTube. Not in English.

Starts around 5:16:

Thank you, as an ex Neumann KH120 owner I guessed it correctly due to the too much bass (if you don't use room correction or the filters) and recessed presence region.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Yes, for monitoring in a well acoustically treated studio I would probably chose the Genelec as its anechoically more neutral, for music enjoyment in a normal room probably the Geithain as its more euphonic and has a cardioid bass which reduces room interaction problems.

Geithain lacks DSP so that makes them kind of equal to Genelec in the context of room interaction problems I assume

 

[thewas]

Geithain lacks DSP so that makes them kind of equal to Genelec in the context of room interaction problems I assume

Wouldn't say so, as its better to avoid acoustically problems then correcting them per EQ. Also you can add an external PEQ/DSP easily but not a cardioid bass behaviour . (unless you use a couple of W371a which cost of course $$$$$)

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Finally got the 05/2020 issue of the Stereoplay digitally delivered to my account. From looking closely at the graphs I think Genelec 8361A measurements are a bit better - in special the dispersion graphs (imo).
The Geithain 921K goes a bit lower: -3/-6 is 30/26 vs 37/34 for 8361A.
OTOH,The Geithain 921K is not as loud: 98db max level vs 106db for 8361A.
After skimming through the reviews, the reason Geithain 921K would score better is due to the cardioid bass feature that makes it easier to setup and probably gives it better (and deeper) bottom end in the real world.
I think they are very close. In a treated room (or studio) 8361A would win imo.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Finally got the 05/2020 issue of the Stereoplay digitally delivered to my account. From looking closely at the graphs I think Genelec 8361A measurements are a bit better - in special the dispersion graphs (imo).
The Geithain 921K goes a bit lower: -3/-6 is 30/26 vs 37/34 for 8361A.
OTOH,The Geithain 921K is not as loud: 98db max level vs 106db for 8361A.
After skimming through the reviews, the reason Geithain 921K would score better is due to the cardioid bass feature that makes it easier to setup and probably gives it better (and deeper) bottom end in the real world.
I think they are very close. In a treated room (or studio) 8361A would win imo.

My guess is that with the W371 bass unit and the way it works filling in nulls the Genelec will achieve a similar bass benefit as the Geithian by a different method.
Here in the UK a pair of 8351Bs with W371s is quite a bit more expensive than the RL 901K in premium veneer and whilst the Geithian looks a bit odd, with its matching pillar stand I would much rather have it in my room than the Genelecs.
My consideration of the Genelecs probably would mean installing an acoustically transparent screen in front of them...

 

[LTig]

The Geithain 921K goes a bit lower: -3/-6 is 30/26 vs 37/34 for 8361A.
OTOH,The Geithain 921K is not as loud: 98db max level vs 106db for 8361A.

I wonder about the relatively low powered amp for the 16" woofer. It's 180W "only". The 8" woofer of my old O300D is powered by 130W and the 10" woofer in the KH420 by 330W (@ 10% THD - wtf is that?). Surely a 16" woofer could handle even more power and might reach more than 98dB SPL. Maybe mid and tweeter are the limit.

 

[FeddyLost]

OTOH,The Geithain 921K is not as loud: 98db max level vs 106db for 8361A

It's very strange.
Peak SPL from 100 Hz up is at least 115 db/m.
Maybe they calculated it by limiting THD, but 12" woofer is at least same displacement as Genelec's twin ovals, so I don't know.
Check 921 page - it's really detailed ... with graphs
https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-921k.html

After skimming through the reviews, the reason Geithain 921K would score better is due to the cardioid bass feature that makes it easier to setup and probably gives it better (and deeper) bottom end in the real world.

In reality it might cost a lot of money to get room that don't care about LF directivity and placement.
Also, maybe some issues of proccessing made Genelec less appealing. Who knows for sure?

I think they are very close. In a treated room (or studio) 8361A would win imo

In studio producer would decide.
But in real room good off-axis with GLM might be even better than cardioid bass.

I wonder about the relatively low powered amp for the 16" woofer

921K uses 12". 180W is a decent subwoofer from 2000th without extreme correction, like MK1250 ...

 

[Frank Dernie]

I wonder about the relatively low powered amp for the 16" woofer. It's 180W "only". The 8" woofer of my old O300D is powered by 130W and the 10" woofer in the KH420 by 330W (@ 10% THD - wtf is that?). Surely a 16" woofer could handle even more power and might reach more than 98dB SPL. Maybe mid and tweeter are the limit.

The 921 has a 12" bass unit, it is the 901 with a 16" and I had the same concern, mind you it also depends on the driver efficiency, and I don't know what that is.
I keep vacillating between having a demo of Genelec 8351b with W371, the Geithain RL901K and telling myself not to be daft since what I have sounds fantastic already

 

[TimVG]

The 921 has a 12" bass unit, it is the 901 with a 16" and I had the same concern, mind you it also depends on the driver efficiency, and I don't know what that is.
I keep vacillating between having a demo of Genelec 8351b with W371, the Geithain RL901K and telling myself not to be daft since what I have sounds fantastic already

If I remember reading correctly you have quite a 'spacious' room. I auditioned* the 801K (which is optimised for longer listening distances, according to them), and it was a great experience.

*I was there for something completely different, dealer wanted me to listen to some new models he just got in. I didn't really like any of them, so before I left he insisted we go to the big room and he fired up the 801ks. Much better.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

The 921 has a 12" bass unit, it is the 901 with a 16" and I had the same concern, mind you it also depends on the driver efficiency, and I don't know what that is.
I keep vacillating between having a demo of Genelec 8351b with W371, the Geithain RL901K and telling myself not to be daft since what I have sounds fantastic already

It seems we are in the same boat I like my NHT XD 2.2 - they sound fantastic. Yet, I feel like buying Genelec (W371+8351B/8361A) or Geithain 901k. Maybe I beat myself into submission by oscillating between the 2 and just keep status quo (NHT). I doubt I'm that wise.

 

[Frank Dernie]

If I remember reading correctly you have quite a 'spacious' room. I auditioned* the 801K (which is optimised for longer listening distances, according to them), and it was a great experience.

*I was there for something completely different, dealer wanted me to listen to some new models he just got in. I didn't really like any of them, so before I left he insisted we go to the big room and he fired up the 801ks. Much better.

My listening distance is at the top limit for the 901 so I had looked at 801 and 811 too but I think they are much more expensive and less well known, your comment on the 801 is therefore most welcome.

 

[thewas]

It's very strange.
Peak SPL from 100 Hz up is at least 115 db/m.
Maybe they calculated it by limiting THD, but 12" woofer is at least same displacement as Genelec's twin ovals, so I don't know.

It is not as strange when you consider that the Genelec use their rear side bass drivers output to increase the spl (bass reflex, almost 6 dB extra) while the Geithain K models use it to decrease the spl on the back (cardioid, up to approximately 8dB less on the rear). For the same reason (that cardioid bass costs spl) the D&D 8c is not cardioid in the lower bass and the Kii Three cardioid bass extension is as big and expensive as it is. Like almost always in nature there is no thing as free lunch and quality and quantity are antagonistic properties.

 

[Purité Audio]

It would be interesting to compare the new Gens/w371, with the 8Cs running two subs in a sink-source arrangement, just running REWs room sim here and the results ( sink source) look extremely promising.
Keith

 

[FeddyLost]

It is not as strange when you consider that the Genelec use their rear side bass drivers output to increase the spl (bass reflex, almost 6 dB extra) while the Geithain K models use it to decrease the spl on the back (cardioid, up to approximately 8dB less on the rear)

I've got this Stereoplay article.
Looks like they limited possible SPL by distortion in bass (especially ~30 hz peak) at 100 db. 12" in semi-open case is just not enough for this, while 95 db distortion plot is much cleaner.

 

[TimVG]

My listening distance is at the top limit for the 901 so I had looked at 801 and 811 too but I think they are much more expensive and less well known, your comment on the 801 is therefore most welcome.

I had a quick look, and looks like the 801K is approximately double the price of the 901K, ouch