MC-1000: Best Speaker in the World?

[tuga]

Your first job should be to get a speaker that has good on and off-axis response. If two speakers are identical in that regard, then there can be some room for preference. If the two speakers don't have these characteristics, their dispersion effect is not dominant in preference.

In my experience/preference a flat on-axis speaker with a smooth yet not completely flat off-axis horizontal response (small amount of beaming at the top of the mid-woofer's passband in the presence region) works better in a small domestic room than a speaker that's also flat off-axis such as a pair of T2s I once owned.

And what about driver resonances? If they are high enough to show up in frequency response, then it matters. If they do not, then they are technical curiosity, not a factor in preference.

How do you measure a resonance in a room?
Do you just plot a frequency response curve or do you look at the decay?
Which one will provide more information?

A small say 1 dB ripple may look inoffensive in the on- and off-axis frequency response plots whilst a CSD plot might show that same ripple causing a high-level, high-Q resonance that keeps on ringing after the rest of the spectrum has gone silent.

 

[MZKM]

the new KEF R3 when they were released as their measurements in the KEF white paper (page 18) were really great so I went to a close by Hifi shop to listen to them.

The measurements indeed look good there, but the small scale makes it look better.

Here are measurements by others:

Not as good looking.

 

[thewas]

Yes, I know those measurements too, still they measure on axis and off axis much smoother than the compared B&W, so it does't change anything to my above experience.

 

[MZKM]

Amir, a single speaker audition cannot tell you a thing about one of the most important performance characteristics of a pair of loudspeakers- their ability to maintain positional accuracy of instruments/sounds as they change in frequency and level and complexity.

If assuming the other unit of the pair performs identically, then yes it does tell you.

To your later point about performance matching between pairs, that is a concern, but how large in reality is up for debate. Amir has 2 pairs of the <$75/pair Dayton’s; if he measures all 4 in terms of on-axis as well as phase and they aren’t too dissimilar, that should tell you that for more expensive speakers the differences should be even smaller, or else they are poorly engineered.

 

[HammerSandwich]

If assuming the other unit of the pair performs identically, then yes it does tell you.

I'm not confident that's 100%. For example, these MC-1000s have an asymmetric driver layout, and they are not mirror imaged. With symmetric placement in a room, reflections will not be identical on both sides. Minor difference? Sure. Impossible to hear? Maybe.

 

[MZKM]

I'm not confident that's 100%. For example, these MC-1000s have an asymmetric driver layout, and they are not mirror imaged. With symmetric placement in a room, reflections will not be identical on both sides. Minor difference? Sure. Impossible to hear? Maybe.

We are talking ignoring the room (or assuming it’s ideal). The measurements or listening tests of a mono speaker will tell you things like how precise the imaging is or how wide the soundstage will be.

 

[Thomas savage]

Testing speakers in mono and quoting' Toole ' would confuse the living daylights out of most hifi store walk ins.

Likely they would feel intimidated, stupid and you'd sell nothing .

Imo.

Right or wrong we should consider the human and what's relatable to them.

@restorer-john @amirm I'm not getting a good feeling about your interactions these days. Topics seem to act like a opportunity to have a little spat rather than constructive discussion . Can we get drunk , kiss and hold hands like the old days.

 

[TomB19]

Don't we all love cone tweeters.

Many papers have been done on cone tweeters.

 

[tomtoo]

What a world in which pure logic would drive us? When i was around 13 hearing two klipsch eckhorns changed my world. Not one. ; )

 

[Thomas savage]

What a world in which pure logic would drive us? When i was around 13 hearing two klipsch eckhorns changed my world. Not one. ; )

Hearing good stereo got me into audio , done right it's impressive.

Coming off the street I doubt any One mono speaker could enthuse one like that.

But hey , maybe you can compel the landlord to cut your store rent because your selling speakers the ' Toole ' way ..

Oh and when the Mrs starts moaning there's no holiday this year and she's looking at the same kitchen cupboards as last century I guess one can always refer her to olive, Toole and the Harman research.

Just a heads up , expect a violent response and to find your best mates boxers under your bed if you try this.

 

[restorer-john]

If assuming the other unit of the pair performs identically, then yes it does tell you.

A big assumption to make and in my experience, perhaps a foolish one to make. Loudspeaker 'pairs' rarely behave identically, regardless of their cost or pedigree. Sure, things have improved in leaps and bounds with modern tolerances, but to have a brand new pair of loudspeakers than cannot achieve a rock-solid image due to asymmetric baffle layout, or tolerances in crossover components and drivers, is a serious consideration. Something a single speaker audition cannot hope to expose.

The fewer the number of drivers and the simpler the crossovers, combined with symmetrical layouts mean the issues can be minimized.

Single speaker auditions have their place, but it would be nice (an courteous) to acknowledge they are not a universal panacea.

 

[Purité Audio]

Certainly with the Kiis and D&D 8Cs each speaker is identical to the master reference speaker speaker, the whole BBC license thing was to ensure that you could use any Ls3/5a with any other.
Keith

 

[tomtoo]

Listening to one speaker is for the advanced. Cool to check tonality. But not for the averege joe. Thats not how people usually buy speakers. We love to get impressed. Who would test a sportscar reduced to half the power?

 

[restorer-john]

Certainly with the Kiis and D&D 8Cs each speaker is identical to the master reference speaker speaker.

Those sorts of guarantees are what separates the state of the art from the also-rans.

 

[MZKM]

A big assumption to make and in my experience, perhaps a foolish one to make. Loudspeaker 'pairs' rarely behave identically, regardless of their cost or pedigree. Sure, things have improved in leaps and bounds with modern tolerances, but to have a brand new pair of loudspeakers than cannot achieve a rock-solid image due to asymmetric baffle layout, or tolerances in crossover components and drivers, is a serious consideration. Something a single speaker audition cannot hope to expose.

The fewer the number of drivers and the simpler the crossovers, combined with symmetrical layouts mean the issues can be minimized.

Single speaker auditions have their place, but it would be nice (an courteous) to acknowledge they are not a universal panacea.

Well, Amir owns 4 of those cheap Dayton’s he just measured and said he may do rudimentary measurements of each. If for $45 they don’t vary too much, then more expensive ones shouldn’t either.

 

[restorer-john]

If for $45 they don’t vary too much, then more expensive ones shouldn’t either.

They have one resistor and one capacitor for their 'crossover' (1st order). They are about as simple as a two way speaker could possibly get. The more complicated the crossovers, the more potential there is for variation.

Amir doesn't need to measure multiple Dayton speakers other than a quick impedance plot for each. If they are all on top of each other, they'll all be pretty similar.

I'd be much more concerned with larger, more expensive multi-way speakers where variations would be unacceptable considering the price paid and the performance promised.

 

[mhardy6647]

... unless of course the drivers themselves are variable.

 

[carewser]

How a 8" woofer can only go down to 80hz is remarkable, they must be tiny cabinets made out of reinforced cardboard

Audioengine A2's have a 2 3/4 inch woofer that goes down 15hz lower than that

 

[tomtoo]

How a 8" woofer can only go down to 80hz is remarkable, they must be tiny cabinets made out of reinforced cardboard

Audioengine A2's have a 2 3/4 inch woofer that goes down 15hz lower than that

One of the hard boys. I mean 8inches are for PA better midranges.

 

[AnalogSteph]

How a 8" woofer can only go down to 80hz is remarkable, they must be tiny cabinets made out of reinforced cardboard

I'd say high fs (keep in mind these are from the late '70s, so you'd see far more high efficiency drivers), high Qts (as still found in cheap drivers today), and yes, probably a rather too small cabinet.