MC-1000: Best Speaker in the World?

[restorer-john]

I have been encouraged in the last few years by the appearance of a younger more technically educated customer, younger guys who havent been subjected to or simply haven’t believed the audiophile BS that has been propagated for the last forty years.

You are clearly an outlier and have found a niche and are looking after it well. I tip my hat to you.

I know of only one HiFi retailer who has been in business near us now for over 35 years. Same place and same excellent service. Another person who looks after their customers. ALL the others have folded and retired.

 

[Purité Audio]

John, how many customers as a percentage purchased say a NS1000 system years ago, would that percentage be similar to today do you think?
My parents bought a midi stack today they would probably buy Sonos, I wonder if the percentage of enthusiasts/wealthy enough has changed?
Keith

 

[dorirod]

Indeed!

View attachment 48931

 

[amirm]

Again, I didn't say that people buy speakers produce good sound, but they buy speakers that they like, that sound good to them. It's a matter of taste, of preference.
The fact that removing the sighted bias or educating them about how to listen would result in different choices is phylosophically interesting but far remoced from reality. Reality is the speakers people are buying sighted because they like how they sound.

Wow, what logic. People don't listen to hifi at a store either so why do they use that method for shopping?

"Reality" is that by allowing other factors than sound to enter the equation, they can fall victim to marketing of audio products to them. Since these other factors don't represent the true fidelity or their taste in speakers, they can change and result in dissatisfaction with their purchases. I am sure you have heard this: "I took the speaker home it didn't sound good. I had to let it break in for weeks and now it has opened up and sounds good."

 

[amirm]

One regarding speakers which produce a horizontal flat off-axis response, another regarding wide vs. narrow directivity and the differences between North American and European rooms, or one about driver resonances?

Your first job should be to get a speaker that has good on and off-axis response. If two speakers are identical in that regard, then there can be some room for preference. If the two speakers don't have these characteristics, their dispersion effect is not dominant in preference.

And what about driver resonances? If they are high enough to show up in frequency response, then it matters. If they do not, then they are technical curiosity, not a factor in preference.

 

[Xulonn]

We've been over this many times here at ASR, but audiophiles (defined in the dictionary as "a hi-fi enthusiast ") are basically hobbyists with an interest in the equipment and technologies that reproduce music, and not simply music lovers. Indeed, not all musicians and music lovers are into - or feel the need to own - a fine audio system. Or a fine automobile. After owning Corvette's, Audi's and BMW's over the years, at age 78 and living in a remote area of Panama, I now own what will likely be my last car - an old 1999 Diesel Montero SUV with peeling paint. But fortunately, my hearing has held up better than most, and I still have a pretty decent little stereo that would cost about $3k to replace with new components.

I think Bose is a good example of an audio company with aggressive and sophisticated marketing for products that are not strictly HiFi - although some of their products actually are. I can assure anyone that Bose mini-cube systems were not purchased because they sounded just like a live performance of a symphony orchestra.

I found it amusing when I saw a pair of Bose 901's used as stage monitors many years ago - with the eight backside speakers facing forward, not back towards a wall. That was a much better use for them.

I had friends many years ago who loved their Bose 901's (sounds great anywhere in the room, they said!). They were not sophisticated music lovers, and the 901's it worked fine for them. They also owned an AMC Pacer, which could hardly be called a "fine automobile", but AMC's marketing program snagged them - just like the Bose marketing efforts.

In 1996, when I moved in with my late partner, she had a decent Onkyo receiver and a pair of Bose MiniCube speakers with subwoofer. So I immediately replaced them with my ADS L810 speakers, and didn't suffer much in Bose-world. She had been perfectly happy listening to Beethoven's Ninth through the Bose cubes, but my preference for full-range (nearly) accurate sound was accommodated, and we enjoyed the "upgraded" system together quite often.

 

[amirm]

And why should they? The premise is ridiculous if that HiFi store is going to survive. Buyers aren't remotely interested in being strapped to a chair with a blindfold listening to a single speaker, while some 'expert' who read a book, dribbles on about 'correct listening techniques'. They'd run for the door, and rightly so.

Rightly so? You mean they should continue evaluating gear the wrong way, buy the wrong equipment because it would look right to them or you?

I remember years ago when I wanted to test a couple of DVD-A players, I bought two copies of the content and had my local high-end guy completely rip out their setup to allow me to connect my Stax headphone amp to the pair of players so I could perform a blind test. That is what a good high-end store should do in exchange for the high margins for gear.

Sounds like you don't know how beneficial single speaker testing is. Give it a try first before worrying how you would look in an audio store testing speakers that way.

When I used to work at companies that sold high-end broadcast video equipment, our customers (major TV networks) would routinely put the video in black and white to examine artifacts better than to be fooled by the color signal on top of them. Indeed, professional monitors always had a switch to turn off color for this very reason. Our eyes have much higher resolution in black and white so you see artifacts there better than in color.

These things are not intuitive to audiophiles but once the science is presented, you better get on board. That is what we do here.

 

[restorer-john]

Sounds like you don't know how beneficial single speaker testing is. Give it a try first before worrying how you would look in an audio store testing speakers that way.

Individual speakers are of course TESTED in isolation, but auditioned in a HiFi store? By potential buyers? Not a chance. Or listened to individually? No way. Don't mix up what you do with Klippel and how people actually buy loudspeakers.

I just picked up the phone and rang a good mate of mine, someone who worked with me and still works selling HiFi. He's been selling audio, surround, full home custom smart installations, etc for one of the largest companies of its type, with 6 locations across Australia. In the business since 1988. That's 32 years and he personally has sold likely >5000 pairs of speakers ranging from TOTL electrostatics, to every brand you can think of.

Fact. Not one person ever in 32 years has had a single speaker demonstration nor asked for one.

 

[restorer-john]

John, how many customers as a percentage purchased say a NS1000 system years ago, would that percentage be similar to today do you think?

A very small percentage. The 1000M (AU3.5K) was just about finished (discontinued). The NS-1000X at AU$5Kpr was a good seller, but the models below (down to say AU$1600pr) were the big sellers. But that was 3o years ago now. Yamaha hasn't had a decent proper speaker until a few years ago.

I'm going to drop in on my mate I mentioned above and get some "off the record" sales figures and maybe have a play with some Martin Logans. I want to know how much the business has really changed in the last decade.

 

[Jon AA]

Don't mix up what you do with Klippel and how people actually buy loudspeakers.

I see no such mixup by Amir. The only mixup I see is coming from you--how people do buy loudspeakers with how people should (or may be better served by if they could) buy loudspeakers. The two are not one in the same. Nobody is arguing HiFi stores commonly sell by performing double-blind tests for customers. We're arguing they should. That would help customers select what actually sounds the best to them, if that's what matters the most to them. And the science says, if that was done in a competent manor, speakers that perform more highly in Amir's testing would also tend to perform better to most customers is such a store.

 

[amirm]

Fact. Not one person ever in 32 years has had a single speaker demonstration nor asked for one.

Fact. Such a tiny portion of the audiophile population bothers to read the research on best way to evaluate the sound from a loudspeaker. Our mission here is drastically change that. Watch the space a year or two from now.

For now, if you are shopping for a speaker, by all means ask the salesman to set it up as mono. You may get a raised eyebrow but that is it. I was at a big box store the other day and manually disconnected one of the speakers and no one bothered me.

 

[restorer-john]

Amir, a single speaker audition cannot tell you a thing about one of the most important performance characteristics of a pair of loudspeakers- their ability to maintain positional accuracy of instruments/sounds as they change in frequency and level and complexity.

I'm sure you have heard otherwise great sounding loudspeaker pairs where a vocalist will 'wander' laterally through their range, and instruments move or get disjointed as crossovers/drivers don't correspond perfectly with one other. It particularly obvious to classical music aficionados and makes or breaks such speakers for them. It is also more pronounced with multi-way speakers. It's always been one of the most obvious limitations in low cost speakers.

Some people don't just hear it, or care, and those people may be quite happy to audition one speaker, but they will no idea how two will perform side by side in that respect.

Your 'mission' to change the way people audition speakers may end up an interesting sideshow for some, but whilst people buy two speakers and place them in a room and listen to stereo recordings, it will be a fringe pursuit at best.

But hey, if you succeed on this quest and HiFi stores start setting up single speaker demo rooms, I'll be the first to eat humble pie.

 

[amirm]

Amir, a single speaker audition cannot tell you a thing about one of the most important performance characteristics of a pair of loudspeakers- their ability to maintain positional accuracy of instruments/sounds as they change in frequency and level and complexity.

There is no connection between two speakers in a room. As such, it is impossible for the characteristics that you mention to only exist when two speakers play, independent of the capabilities of each.

You are confusing fidelity of a speaker, with sound reproduction in a room using two.

 

[amirm]

But hey, if you succeed on this quest and HiFi stores start setting up single speaker demo rooms, I'll be the first to eat humble pie.

What? Hifi stores want to sell you stuff even if it is not good. Last thing they are going to do is setup a mono test so that you can better tell what is crap.

What I said is that audiophiles should ask for mono auditioning, not that the stores will be setup that way.

 

[restorer-john]

There is no connection between two speakers in a room. As such, it is impossible for the characteristics that you mention to only exist when two speakers play, independent of the capabilities of each.

You are confusing fidelity of a speaker, with sound reproduction in a room using two

Amir, you are not comprehending what I have patiently attempted to articulate in a friendly manner. Clearly, my inability to distil what is a pretty basic fundamental of loudspeakers in actual use, is a gross failing of my communication skills...

And, for the record, I'm not confusing a thing. You don't seem to realize that two speakers rely on each other entirely to be able to produce accurate instrument placement in the stereo image/stage. A tiny variation in a pair of speakers with crossovers component values, driver sensitivities and sample to sample response variations, results in what I am talking about- wandering and imprecise localization. It's what separates the good speakers from the bad. It's so common, I'm in shock you don't know what I'm talking about.

So, back to your single speaker demonstrations. They can be a useful addition but certainly not now, and not ever, a replacement for a pair of speakers demonstration.

 

[thewas]

As much as I love and recommend the research of Harman, in the end like any theory it's applicability is limited by external factors too. Of course smooth on axis FR and directivity are usually preferred but if external factors like speaker placement and room acoustics are not optimal than for example a speaker with a earlier dropping bass might be preferred to a linear one, as the latter can cause a bass peak in the room. The Harman blind tests are done in quite good acoustic conditions and so was the Harman metric developed, but the reality in many living places looks differently.

Just as a funny example, myself being an audio measurement and science fan I wanted to buy the new KEF R3 when they were released as their measurements in the KEF white paper (page 18) were really great so I went to a close by Hifi shop to listen to them. Also just out of curiosity I asked the seller to place the a bit more expensive B&W 705 S2 whose FR measurements are comparably untidy, no linearity on axis and no smooth directivity, next to them for a direct comparison:

The seller told me that in that comparison I would obviously prefer the B&W and I smiled to myself being sure the opposite would happen knowing the measurements of both and being a KEF engineering fan. Well, the opposite happened, the KEF sounded more like a loudspeaker and too dark to me, which wouldn't be a problem for me as I use DSP/EQ, but it would be for most normal Hifi buyers. Since then I recommend end consumers that do not create music (music creation should be done imho on perfect measuring speakers to end the "circle of confusion") more to listen and compare as much as they can, let's also not forget that many TV buyers don't prefer the neutral "movie" settings but the other more flashy ones and the rental car example from Toole's book.

 

[tuga]

No, they don't. They choose speakers because of what they think they sound like in stereo compared to a limited number of alternatives, in a contrived situation, with many factors other than the actual sound included.

There's a substantial amount of evidence that conducting tests the way audiophiles typically do(sighted, in stereo, not level matched, with only long term memory for comparison) produces inconsistent results, and your preference in the moment of making a decision under those conditions has little to do with the actual sound quality of the speaker.

I'll echo others and say: Read the book. Without it, your points are very boring and not worth refuting any further.

I agree about level matching but you are still missing the point that even though the assessment methodology used by almost all audiophiles is not effetive you cannot deny that they choose according to their preference.

By the way, how many different speakers did the sample in Toole's trials?
Did they listen to those speakers in optimal positioning conditions and room size?

You don't have to reply if you find it boring.
I have started reading your "bible".

 

[tuga]

A very high percentage of potential clients I visit have the speakers their partner or room will allow, boomy bass then replace the speakers for a pair with less bass extension.
Many listeners simply do not experience that many designs , a case of better than the last one, add in marketing and the stock held by the nearest , perhaps only hi-Fi shop in the immediate vicinity .
Keith

Is it wrong to replace replace one's speakers for a pair with less bass extension when you have boomy bass? It surely depends on the cause but it is most likely a speaker-room interaction problem wouldn't you agree?

There are topics about about "Your speaker history" in some of the forums you participate in, I suggest that you go and have a look at how many designs people have experienced. There aren't many "acoustic cardioid midrange, boundary-coupled bass drivers and active room matching" around, perhaps unfortunately.

 

[tuga]

Wow, what logic. People don't listen to hifi at a store either so why do they use that method for shopping?

"Reality" is that by allowing other factors than sound to enter the equation, they can fall victim to marketing of audio products to them. Since these other factors don't represent the true fidelity or their taste in speakers, they can change and result in dissatisfaction with their purchases. I am sure you have heard this: "I took the speaker home it didn't sound good. I had to let it break in for weeks and now it has opened up and sounds good."

Wow, what logic. People (let's stick to audiophiles, normal people couldn't care less) just go to the store and buy whatever they think they will like because of what they read in a magazine?

I agree that most audiophiles make the wrong choices from the "accurate reproduction" perspective but you can't say that they are not buying speakers that they don't like; some may others may not.
Besides audiophiles like box-swapping, it's in their genes. Many are hoarders, most are compulsive consumers. They often change for change sake (and write so openly at forums). I've often read people say that for them the hobby is about the journey not the destination.
They're wasting money and have moved their focus from the music to the sound of the system or systems (some people have more than one system), yes, but they are making wrong but preference-based choices.

 

[Dimitri]

Here is why buying speakers is hard:

Every speaker company promises "the very best sound"/ uncompomizing performance for it's price
or uncompromizing performance for it's price
or filling the room with <insert name here> sound
or <insert other claim here>

You end up realizing that -unless you are independently wealthy, single, live in a chateau
own at least one Lambo and four Porsches (hard to pick just "one color") and also own a Bentley with your own driver, that is also your personal pilot-
you'll have to compromise in some way, price, shape , sound or form.

So you start looking ....trying to pick something that you decided "should be a good choice
but also something that :
your significant other(s) won't blow their top off when they see it.(You'll put these,..where?
And they have to fit in whatever room you are planning to use them in.
And your best budddies wont't say "You paid HOW MUCH for these?" -And that goes both ways;
They can't be too cheap and they can't be too expensive.
Based on this magic price number , friends will decide if they sound good enough for that price you paid.
Or if you should have spend some more and "gotten something better"
Yeah...that's right. You can't win!
Of course this way you can find out who your real friends are.
But one way or another you're more likely to shedd the speakers or some friends.
By some slim chance you might be able to keep both. (firnds and speakers).

And they also have to be able to withstand buyer's remorse and the reviews that will come
out for various other models in the next 3-18 months. Because your'll spend more time reading
other reviews than listening to them - Or maybe reading other reviews while listening to them.
So you take on google and the forums ...and the best pair of speakers for you is the one you have
not bought yet.
But you'll come to a decision...soon.

(originally "Buying software for your business" by yours truly , adapted for "Buying speakers" )