MBL Pre-amp De-Thrones Benchmark?

[Vasr]

On the basis of my audio travels, I'd have to guess that most Reference Line customers are in East Asia.

Interesting. I would have guessed the product design appealed more to people who liked golden toilets.

 

[Vasr]

Did I miss something? Most (that does not mean everybody) people today run a DAC right into their amplifier. There aren't many amps that a balanced DAC with 4v output will not drive to the max.

Some of us still need switching between multiple sources, volume control and others may also have analog sources combined with digital sources. It is still a fragmented market to say most.

Isn't a DAC that incorporates volume control (output gain control), and the ability to switch between at least two sources (and perhaps a remote as well) basically a barebones digital-only pre-amp?

Seems like the two are slowly converging towards each other with pre-amps shedding analog sources (and so ADCs) and DACs adding volume controls and a source-switching function with remotes.

 

[RayDunzl]

On the basis of my audio travels, I'd have to guess that most Reference Line customers are in East Asia.

I suppose that could be good for the Balance of Trade:

Send one MBL and get back 146 others of possibly equal audible consequence.

(assuming the MBL isn't secretly manufactured there)

 

[JeffS7444]

Good to know that MBL is well-engineered. I've seen them at hifi shows, and the sound was generally very good, and the hardware did indeed appear to be finely crafted from costly materials, but to me it's visual overload.

I learned that there is a certain class of individual for whom price matters, and you can sometimes find them posting queries like "$10000 to spend on an amp, what should I buy?". I responded to one such post with a recommendation which met all of the poster's requirements save for the price, and got a curt reply to the effect of "I did not ask for $2000 recommendations, if you don't own $10000 amplifiers, I am not interested in your opinion". I suppose if is willing to put on a show for these clowns, there's money to be made, but strangely, these high rollers don't seem to last very long.

 

[Wes]

Good that MBL pushed the limits. Now the Chinese can reverse-engineer it and sell for $285

 

[Ron Texas]

Some of us still need switching between multiple sources, volume control and others may also have analog sources combined with digital sources. It is still a fragmented market to say most.

Isn't a DAC that incorporates volume control (output gain control), and the ability to switch between at least two sources (and perhaps a remote as well) basically a barebones digital-only pre-amp?

Seems like the two are slowly converging towards each other with pre-amps shedding analog sources (and so ADCs) and DACs adding volume controls and a source-switching function with remotes.

Even the inexpensive DX3 pro has a volume control, 3 digital inputs and a head amp to boot.

 

[anmpr1]

It is still a fragmented market to say most. Isn't a DAC that incorporates volume control (output gain control), and the ability to switch between at least two sources (and perhaps a remote as well) basically a barebones digital-only pre-amp?

Flexibility is the key to preamplification. I use a DAC3HGC to connect both a phono stage and USB PC sourced digits to it's companion amplifier. The unit's second analog out feeds a sub-woofer with it's own dedicated crossover. So yes, the DAC3 is pretty much a preamp for me.

The more I think about Benchmark, their design and engineering philosophy, the more impressed I am. From the Stereophile review, this MBL preamplifier is obviously an engineering powerhouse, but if you read Jürgen Reis's comments, and then contrast them with John Siau's, you really have to wonder if these two men are on the same planet. In any case, kudos to MBL for their engineering (in spite of the Liberace designs aesthetics).

 

[Xulonn]

Meh. Nice engineering but Preamps are dying. Dacs will take over as digital preamps IMO

Indeed. The MBL looks like an excellent preamp hiding behind an ostentatious example of outrageous bling.

I haven't used an audio preamplifier for some time, but I just replaced my preamp substitute, a Topping DX7s DAC/HA, with an AVP (the IOTAVX 7.1 4K), simply because I wanted to add DSP room correction plus a center channel for movies. I am well aware that the IOTAVX AVP DAC (Cirrus Logic CS42528 - based) fed by HDMI from my HTPC, is unlikely to approach the measured performance of my USB-fed Topping DAC, but before I sell the Topping, I will connect it to one of the AVP's line-level inputs to see if I can hear any improvement over the AVP DAC. I doubt that I will be able to hear a difference, and I expect that if Amir ever gets the excellent and affordable IOTAVX AVP to test, it will likely measure far below the Topping, but its SINAD should be below the threshold of audibility.

Interesting. I would have guessed the product design appealed more to people who liked golden toilets.

LOL! The MBL in white and gold would look good in the $100 million three-story Manhattan penthouse of a famous person whose name cannot be mentioned here at ASR. (I don't think the owner is into audio, however, but he apparently loves gold.)

 

[Vasr]

I expect that if Amir ever gets the excellent and affordable IOTAVX AVP to test, it will likely measure far below the Topping, but its SINAD should be below the threshold of audibility.

Or the equivalent Emotiva MCA-700 ( cheaper than IOTA if you don't need XLR out) or the older NuForce AVP-18 you can find at clearance prices (cheaper than the Emotiva if you don't need the XLR or the 4k HDMI) to measure. They all use the same exact board from the same manufacturer with differences in HDMI version and XLR outs. That Cirrus Logic DAC chip is not bad. Was used in many of the first generation AVRs even by the "audiophile" brands before they gave up on HT. Not the 100db+ of current generation but should be in the 90s at least. I don't think one would be able to differentiate it audibly from SOTA chips.

 

[Xulonn]

Or the equivalent Emotiva MCA-700 ( cheaper than IOTA if you don't need XLR out) or the older NuForce AVP-18 you can find at clearance prices (cheaper than the Emotiva if you don't need the XLR or the 4k HDMI) to measure. They all use the same exact board from the same manufacturer with differences in HDMI version and XLR outs. That Cirrus Logic DAC chip is not bad. Was used in many of the first generation AVRs even by the "audiophile" brands before they gave up on HT. Not the 100db+ of current generation but should be in the 90s at least. I don't think one would be able to differentiate it audibly from SOTA chips.

I wanted 4K, XLR, and DSP room correction - and I couldn't find anything other than the IOTAVX that gave me the features on my check list for that price. So far, its working like a charm.

Tomorrow I will finish soldering the connections on my Ghent/ICEpower 200ASC+AC XLR input amplifier that will replace my old, good-sounding Classé Model Seventy amplifier which is also XLR. I don't expect an improvement in sound from my upgraded system, but it will have all the features I want in a modern, energy-efficient system. (I will probably replace my 40" LCD 1080p TV with a 43" 4K model soon.)

As I lose mobility due to nerve degeneration at age 78, my AV system, PC and the internet (160Mbps) are my windows to the world, and I rent a small two bedroom casa here in a small town in the mountains of western Panama, and use the second, smaller bedroom for a media and computer room. I can still walk some and do basic exercises, but there will likely be no more long hikes or drives for me.

 

[carlosmante]

The people standing around that clear out after he starts say it all.

Yeah, spending money visiting a Fake Venice say it All.

 

[Doodski]

I wanted 4K, XLR, and DSP room correction - and I couldn't find anything other than the IOTAVX that gave me the features on my check list for that price. So far, its working like a charm.

Tomorrow I will finish soldering the connections on my Ghent/ICEpower 200ASC+AC XLR input amplifier that will replace my old, good-sounding Classé Model Seventy amplifier which is also XLR. I don't expect an improvement in sound from my upgraded system, but it will have all the features I want in a modern, energy-efficient system. (I will probably replace my 40" LCD 1080p TV with a 43" 4K model soon.)

As I lose mobility due to nerve degeneration at age 78, my AV system, PC and the internet (160Mbps) are my windows to the world, and I rent a small two bedroom casa here in a small town in the mountains of western Panama, and use the second, smaller bedroom for a media and computer room. I can still walk some and do basic exercises, but there will likely be no more long hikes or drives for me.

Your building a nice system there.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

OMG. It is so ugly, you would have to pay me $15,000 to take it.

Looks kinda like that station wagon Clark Griswold bought in National Lampoon's Vacation.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Indeed. The MBL looks like an excellent preamp hiding behind an ostentatious example of outrageous bling.

I haven't used an audio preamplifier for some time, but I just replaced my preamp substitute, a Topping DX7s DAC/HA, with an AVP (the IOTAVX 7.1 4K), simply because I wanted to add DSP room correction plus a center channel for movies. I am well aware that the IOTAVX AVP DAC (Cirrus Logic CS42528 - based) fed by HDMI from my HTPC, is unlikely to approach the measured performance of my USB-fed Topping DAC, but before I sell the Topping, I will connect it to one of the AVP's line-level inputs to see if I can hear any improvement over the AVP DAC. I doubt that I will be able to hear a difference, and I expect that if Amir ever gets the excellent and affordable IOTAVX AVP to test, it will likely measure far below the Topping, but its SINAD should be below the threshold of audibility.

LOL! The MBL in white and gold would look good in the $100 million three-story Manhattan penthouse of a famous person whose name cannot be mentioned here at ASR. (I don't think the owner is into audio, however, but he apparently loves gold.)

View attachment 71073

All I can say is yuck! Looks like the New York apartment (purchased with graft) of a deposed South American/Carribean dictator! In short, Baby Doc's or Idi Amin's or Pinochet's golden parachute

 

[cjfrbw]

These threads referring to Stereophile reviews clued me into reading the comments sections after the reviews. They are marvels of bilious snideness and are quite fun to read in an audio-as-combat sort of way. I think I will start reading them more often. Stereophile seems to have a captive peanut gallery there. It must take thick skin to be a reviewer these days.

I do think that JV Serinus is a gifted subjective listener and communicator, as far as such subjective things go (I know, I know, not very far around ASR). I think nowadays he is one of the few I would wade through.

 

[RayDunzl]

I do think that JV Serinus is a gifted subjective listener and communicator, as far as such subjective things go (I know, I know, not very far around ASR). I think nowadays he is one of the few I would wade through.

In case you missed... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ereophile-reviewer-jason-victor-serinus.1487/

 

[Dialectic]

I do think that JV Serinus is a gifted subjective listener and communicator, as far as such subjective things go (I know, I know, not very far around ASR). I think nowadays he is one of the few I would wade through.

I'm terribly sorry, but Mr. Serinus is not a gifted listener. He has no idea what he's hearing from any device he reviews. For example, with the MBL, he reported that he heard the following:

Listening to these tracks over and over, as I switched back and forth between the [DCS] Rossini solo and Rossini plus [MBL] N11, confirmed several things. While the N11 is extremely revealing of subtle details and brings a lovely, glowing sweetness to recordings I find seductive and ideal for long-term listening without fatigue, its Unity Gain feature, with this DAC, reduced color saturation, richness, and transparency—unless I switched footers under the Roon Nucleus+ server/ streamer and the HDPlex linear power supply. Indeed, even after trying some of the eight types of footers available to me—I didn't bother with footers that I knew wouldn't work—I could never get the sound precisely right.

So, according to Mr. Serinus, switching footers under his streamer made the Unity Gain feature on the MBL preamp sound better but not "precisely right," and he knew that certain footers "wouldn't work." Yep, sure.

And let us not bring up his rave review of the disastrously awful Talon Khorus speaker. Any competent listener would have known within minutes, perhaps seconds, that that speaker was the result of a broken design.

Prof. Rubinson and Mr. Atkinson are the only two reviewers worth reading in Stereophile for their audio knowledge (which is, of course, considerable) and impressions. I think the late Art Dudley, like Harry Pearson, was a gifted writer and entertainer, but his tastes ran contrary to nearly all of what science has taught us about audio (and I think he would have admitted as much).

The situation at Stereophile drives me nuts because I know many more qualified people who could write for the magazine and produce something that moves the hobby and the industry in salutary directions. From my perspective, the good news is that, by reviewing products for ASR, Amir has bypassed the audio mag-industrial complex and begun to inject some sense into high-end audio.

 

[SIY]

I'm terribly sorry, but Mr. Serinus is not a gifted listener. He has no idea what he's hearing from any device he reviews. For example, with the MBL, he reported that he heard the following:



So, according to Mr. Serinus, switching footers under his streamer made the Unity Gain feature on the MBL preamp to sound better but not "precisely right," and he knew that certain footers "wouldn't work." Yep, sure.

And let us not bring up his rave review of the disastrously awful Talon Khorus speaker. Any competent listener would have known within minutes, perhaps seconds, that that speaker was the result of a broken design.

Prof. Rubinson and Mr. Atkinson are the only two reviewers worth reading in Stereophile for their audio knowledge (which is, of course, considerable) and impressions. I think the late Art Dudley, like Harry Pearson, was a gifted writer and entertainer, but his tastes ran contrary to nearly all of what science has taught us about audio (and I think he would have admitted as much).

The situation at Stereophile drives me nuts because I know many more qualified people who could write for the magazine and produce something that moves the hobby and the industry in salutary directions. From my perspective, the good news is that, by reviewing products for ASR, Amir has bypassed the audio mag-industrial complex and begun to inject some sense into high-end audio.

It's entertainment. Mr. S entertains his readers. Don't try to ruin that by asking that works of fiction meet the standards of serious non-fiction.

I have no particular first-hand knowledge (the magazine I write for is technology-based), but I suspect this is audio's version of kayfabe.

 

[anmpr1]

Prof. Rubinson and Mr. Atkinson are the only two reviewers worth reading in Stereophile for their audio knowledge (which is, of course, considerable) and impressions. I think ...Harry Pearson, was a gifted writer and entertainer...

Kal is level headed, direct, and reasonable. Worth reading. The fact that John Atkinson is the best thing going at the magazine is true, but is sort of a scary thought. Who would have ever imagined that to be the case twenty years ago? I appreciate and value his work, although you have to 'read between the lines' with him.

I'm not sure how 'gifted' Harry was, but your point about 'entertainment' is definitely the case. For the most part the 'high-end' press (if you can call it 'press') exists for entertainment purposes. That, and as a marketing arm for manufacturers (this latter is the primary reason). There is nothing reality-based in most of the reviews. A mumbo-jumbo of words that make no sense when you try and parse them coherently.

 

[anmpr1]

...I suspect this is audio's version of kayfabe.

It's a heck of a note when Vince McMahon's circus is more honest than the high-end press.

This is sad given that Gordon Holt's chief reason for his magazine was that he believed manufacturers (advertisers) had too much control over copy. For Gordon it wasn't that High Fidelity and Stereo Review were not telling the truth, but rather that they were not telling the entire truth, and the reason they held back editorially was because of ad revenue. Talk about what goes around comes around...

We should all take some time to read this slowly:

The N11 clarified subtle tonal differences and the myriad overtones and undertones of Goerne's voice while rendering the piano more lustrous. What was even more significant to me than the N11's touch of warmth, sweetness, and velvety polish was how it pulled me deeper into the performance.

What does that even mean? It is a series of words that express some kind of emotional or inner pneuma having no basis in anything anyone anywhere can point to. In fact, it's a meaningless word-pie whose only purpose is to say absolutely nothing about an expensive piece of gear. It exists to confuse, if it exists as anything at all.

Finally, has anyone stopped to ask why why a fifteen thousand dollar preamplifier needs the following: Titanium and Bronze Sort Kones, Sort Lifts; Audio Quest Niagra 5000 power conditioner & NRG Edison outlets & JitterBugs; Tweek Geek Dark Matter Stealth power conditioner with High Fidelity and Furutech options; GreenWave AC filter... and so on? Is it so bad out of the box that you need thousands of dollars of add-ons to make it work?

How anyone can take this seriously (not the preamp itself, which by all indications is well designed) is something I can never hope to understand.