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Maybe you don't need an expensive camera either

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amirm

amirm

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Sure. For each their own:) For Your purpose its doing job. But I LOVE to tinker in postprocess in Lightroom so operating mainly on RAWs:)

And sometimes working in churches as hobby so big and bright lenses are needed
For regular photography I still use them of course including Lightroom and Photoshop. Here is an example of Reflection Lake at sunrise in Mt. Rainier:

index.php


The darn slow browsing of RAW files is now making me re-think shooting in that. I might switch to JPEG.
 

SIY

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Since we're linking :D, here's an article and another with some of my wife's audio equipment photos.

And, of course food. We can't start dinner until she's done photographing everything I made.

Her equipment is rather modest, but she extracts far more from it than I ever could.
 

andreasmaaan

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Coming on the heels of recent discussions on lower cost audio equipment, here is one on photography.

An interesting analogy, but I think it should be noted that a camera's job is to capture, while the job of the audio gear we're interested in here on ASR is to reproduce. A better analogy would therefore be to printers or screens with which the captured digital image is reproduced.

As I understand it from my girlfriend who is a professional photographer, when it comes to image quality, the digital camera is relatively unimportant in relation to the lens. Therefore, digital cameras should primarily be chosen on the basis of which lenses can be fitted to them, and of course the feature set offered (which is usually more than adequate).

She agrees though that there are similarities between the hardcore audiophile world and the hardcore camera enthusiast world.

FWIW, and this is of course an entirely separate discussion, she often prefers analogue cameras because in her field she is less interested in absolute accuracy and more interested in achieving specific artistic results through analogue processing.

She obviously is very interested in absolute accuracy of the captured image when it comes to reproduction and digital editing though, and her scanner and monitor reflect this.
 

mi-fu

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The connection between good photographs and good cameras certainly is a faint one.

I think Annie Leibovitz once said that "If you are asking what's the camera, you are asking the wrong question" :p

Like @Wombat has said, if the goal is to make print-out, we really do not need that many pixels. Even in the days when I did wet dark room, I rarely printed larger than 20x24. For a digital 20x24 print nowadays, even at 180 ppi, i think the required resolution is still below 24mp.

If my memory serves well, I think for a 20x24 print, I really needed at least 645 format without seeing too many grains (ISO 400). 4x5 film will be much better for that size.

Now, a 35mm format digital certainly is more than enough for 20x24. I think even a good 1-inch 20MP sensor, like the pocketable Sony RX100s, will do that job very well. So technology works!

But - there is always a but, haha, if we are going to view the image on monitors, it will be quite different. Let's say if we take iPhone's Retina display as the standard (Apple claims it is the highest PPI most people ever need at normally close viewing distance, i.e. around 300ppi), then probably we will still be benefitted from even higher resolution monitors. That means, even without pixel-peeping, we may still be higher pixel cameras.

That is not the whole story yet, apart from the resolution, the actual physical size of the pixel also matters. As a general rule, the bigger (the fatter) the pixel, the better quality it renders (lower noise). So a 35mm format 24mp almost is certainly better than a APS-C 24mp. And a APS-C 24mp is almost certainly better than Micro-four-third 24mp. The benefit of lower noise sensors can easily be seen on high ISO performance.

Also, apart from signal-noise-ratio, different sensor sizes also create different looks, i.e. the perspective of the image, which is also related to the "bokeh" (out-of-focus) effect. That's why point-and-shoot camera can hardly achieve shallow depth of field, or the so called "professional" camera look.

And then we have the jpeg vs raw debate. I am a firm believer of raw files. The reason actually is rather simple: Only raw files can provide enough leeway for digital post-processing. For me, the analogy is like this: Shooting raw is like keeping the film negatives, one can do darkroom to vastly alter the image with the negatives again in later days. Shooting jpeg instead is like only keeping the prints and discarding the negatives. If the prints are good and you are happy with that, you are fine. But in many cases, there are always flaws in the image, like blown-out or under-exposure, or inaccurate color balance, etc. Then there is very, very little can be done without image degradation with jpegs.

It is again a hard lesson I learnt from myself. I used to have a very good jpeg-rendering camera - a Fuji S3pro, one of a kind in its days with superb jpeg color. Then for a year or so, I only shoot JPEG with it (because saving raws was painfully slow on that camera). Now I really regret so much that I cannot retouch some of those files with better software algorithm today. Again, it is back to the "invest for the future" logic.

Photography is a really fun thing. And certainly there is a wide spread gear-acquisition-syndrome in the community. I think the difficulty is to understand what one really needs. Unlike audio, that most of us just use it to listen to music, the camera is a tool. We use it to MAKE photos. Then we need to look at what the usage really is.

For a wildlife photographer or sports photographer, they will need telephoto lenses with big aperture and fast AF camera bodies. For that approach, it is very hard to save money to buy anything less than top-notch (or at least semi-pro). But if one's goal is landscape shoot, then it is much easier and cost-saving. And if one goal is to do portraits, then one question needs to be asked is how demanding you are ;). One may need a medium format for the perfect skin tone or one can get by with a entry level camera with a lensbaby lens that does some creative effects.

But equipment cannot change the fact that a good camera doesn't warrant a good picture. :)
 

welder

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Analogy is so that in photo at the beginning often you are in pursuit of perfect image reproduction (megapixels, dynamic range, low noise), then, reaching some point - going artistic, try analog film, get amazed by bokeh imperfection, fisheye etc.

In audio - you are searching the purest dac/amp (resolution,sampling, good sinad, low jitter, mains hum, cold and analytic, etc), then also you can change at some point and try searching for fun,warmth, trying all-tube amps etc.
 

andreasmaaan

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Analogy is so that in photo at the beginning often you are in pursuit of perfect image reproduction (megapixels, dynamic range, low noise), then, reaching some point - going artistic, try analog film, get amazed by bokeh imperfection, fisheye etc.

In audio - you are searching the purest source (resolution,sampling, good sinad, low jitter, mains hum, cold and analytic, etc), then also you can change at some point and try searching for fun,warmth, trying all-tube amps etc.

Ok, but in terms of cameras, the analogy in audio would be to the recording chain, not the reproduction chain.

Taking your approach, you might start with mics, preamps and ADC that are transparent (or as close as possible), and then if you're not getting what you want you could mess around with mics or preamps with a house FR or desired distortion spectra, or you might decide to try analogue tape as your medium.
 
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amirm

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For a wildlife photographer or sports photographer, they will need telephoto lenses with big aperture and fast AF camera bodies.
Yeh, often I curse myself for picking wildlife as the first area of my photography hobby. I have lugged my 600mm F4 for miles and had the painful shoulder to show for it. Add the beefy tripod to that and it is just such a difficult hobby to pull off. Unfortunately there is no shortcuts if you want images like this:

GQ5R9292-XL.jpg


GQ5R9163-XL.jpg


GQ5R8593-X2.jpg


GQ5R1841-X3.jpg
 

welder

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Ok, but in terms of cameras, the analogy in audio would be to the recording chain, not the reproduction chain.

Taking your approach, you might start with mics, preamps and ADC that are transparent (or as close as possible), and then if you're not getting what you want you could mess around with mics or preamps with a house FR or desired distortion spectra, or you might decide to try analogue tape as your medium.

I just used a "softer" analogy:)

Yeh, often I curse myself for picking wildlife as the first area of my photography hobby. I have lugged my 600mm F4 for miles and had the painful shoulder to show for it. Add the beefy tripod to that and it is just such a difficult hobby to pull off. Unfortunately there is no shortcuts if you want images like this:

GQ5R9292-XL.jpg


GQ5R9163-XL.jpg


GQ5R8593-X2.jpg


GQ5R1841-X3.jpg
You should pick street photo. Nifty fifty and you're good to go;)
 
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amirm

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You should pick street photo. Nifty fifty and you're good to go;)
I do fair bit of that too. You may have noticed my avatar. :)

GQ5R0164-X3.jpg


GQ5R0029-X3.jpg


_G5T0556-L.jpg


_G5T0526-X3.jpg
 

Frank Dernie

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There is one distinction between cameras and audio equipment though: For audio, very likely, there is a fairly attainable threshold of the highest quality difference we can tell, but for digital cameras, the chase for pixels can be quite unlimited.

In fact, how many pixels are "enough" is largely related to the resolution of the monitor. I remember that years ago, I heard a friend said that an image of 1024x768 was "more than enough." I think, by today's standard, 1024x768s probably are considered slightly better thumbnails? :p

Therefore, for cameras, I think it is good to invest for the future. Now for a 5k monitor, the minimum resolution required to cover the whole screen is around 15M pixels. But for a 8k monitor, which will become the mainstream in a year or two, will require around 33M pixels. And if you are the type of photographers who do quite a bit of cropping and retouching, probably you will want quite a bit more than that.

Sometimes, when I looked at the old photos taken by my first digital camera - Olympus 4040, a 4M pixels camera, I would regret so much that I didn't buy a higher resolution camera at the time. Those pictures now look so tiny!

Lesson learnt. I now use the highest pixels camera whenever I can (if weight is allowed)!
Don't forget the lens!
Having a high resolution monitor isn't much use if the lens can't resolve up to the number of pixels the camera sensor has, and I think almost always the lens will be the weakest link using something like the 42 megapixel Sony I have unless spectacular prime lenses are used.
Equally a spectacular lens isn't much use if you don't carry it because it is heavy and bulky.
I have actually "downsized" to 4/3 recently for long lenses, replacing my 600mm f4 and 400 f2.8 with a 300mm f4 from Olympus and 200 f2.8 Pana-Leica which have the same magnification but are relatively tiny. I am sure on a print few if any would be able to see the difference.
Also, whilst resolution and contrast are easy enough to measure, important things (if you use fast lenses) like the nature of the oof areas, and the transition between soft and sharp are not defined. The Canon "Lens Works" books, which I like, propose that the nature of the oof areas is smooth if the saggital and tangential MTF curves are close to the same (rare on a zoom) but I have never seen any other reference to this, or any other technical explanation other than looking at prints. Certainly sharpness is only one aspect of lens performance and lack of flare is at least as important as sharpness to me, and a fast lens with messy oof areas is hopeless IMO.
 

Ron Texas

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I have a fancy camera. For the way I shoot it's advanced automation including rapid autofocus, high resolution and low light capability are extremely helpful. Low end DSLR's have nasty viewfinders. I suppose if you can always take your time, lower end cameras work OK. One could also buy used and save a ton of money.
 

mi-fu

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Don't forget the lens!
Having a high resolution monitor isn't much use if the lens can't resolve up to the number of pixels the camera sensor has, and I think almost always the lens will be the weakest link using something like the 42 megapixel Sony I have unless spectacular prime lenses are used.
Equally a spectacular lens isn't much use if you don't carry it because it is heavy and bulky.
I have actually "downsized" to 4/3 recently for long lenses, replacing my 600mm f4 and 400 f2.8 with a 300mm f4 from Olympus and 200 f2.8 Pana-Leica which have the same magnification but are relatively tiny. I am sure on a print few if any would be able to see the difference.
Also, whilst resolution and contrast are easy enough to measure, important things (if you use fast lenses) like the nature of the oof areas, and the transition between soft and sharp are not defined. The Canon "Lens Works" books, which I like, propose that the nature of the oof areas is smooth if the saggital and tangential MTF curves are close to the same (rare on a zoom) but I have never seen any other reference to this, or any other technical explanation other than looking at prints. Certainly sharpness is only one aspect of lens performance and lack of flare is at least as important as sharpness to me, and a fast lens with messy oof areas is hopeless IMO.

Absolutely!

My ready-to-go camera is exactly the one you mentioned - the 42mp Sony A7R2. While the camera is certainly small, particularly for a 42mp, the lenses which can deliver matching quality certainly are not that small!

My main lens is a GM 24-70, which is basically not much different from other 24-70/2.8 DSLR lenses. So the benefit on weight from mirrorless actually is not that significant. But if I can use prime lenses only, the Sony / Zeiss 55mm, 35mm primes are pretty neat with small form factors. I'm rather happy with that combination, especially for street photography. :)

I agree with you that the lens is almost always the weakest link. The sensor development in recent years (thanks to Sony) is so significant that the lens often becomes the culprit for most bad setups. The problem is that most people prefer zoom lenses because of its convenience, but zoom lenses can never be as good as prime lenses. But entry level cameras almost always use zooms. High quality zooms are hard to design and heavy and expensive to produce. The best bang for the buck are always prime lenses. I would even go further to say: If one doesn't need the out-of-focus blurriness, buy slower primes, like 35mm f2.8, 50mm f1.8, 105mm f4, then stop down a bit to shoot. That will save a lot of money!

But if we are chasing after oof smoothness (bokeh), haha.. then we are going to pay a huge price for it. While some are rightfully justified, it is also where snake oil appears.

Recently, I'm a huge fan of Sigma Art lenses. They show that high quality fast lenses with beautiful bokeh don't need to be outrageously expensive. They are the Topping in camera world :p
 
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