Maximizing family listening enjoyment!? What techniques/equipment have you used?

[Tic]

My family living room is my main listening space but unfortunately like many living rooms it has some significant compromises including asymmetric positioning of the speakers and various furniture in none ideal spaces. However 80% of my music listening is done with my family in all kinds of positions (generally 3-5m away from the speakers) with only a small amount of dedicated 'sweetspot' listening. My system is made up of:

Sonos Connect to MiniDSP Flex with Dirac Live correction
Elac Navis Active Bookshelf Speakers
Rythmik E15HP2 subwoofer (crossed over at about 75HZ and room corrected etc)

I recently got some Genelec 8030s wallmounted in another space and loved them so I decided to try some 8050's in my living room to get the same magic. However the left corner turned out to have the perfect dimensions to put the acoustic axis of the speaker exactly the same distance from the side and back wall creating a double null in the 200Hz region and sucking out all the warmth from the sound. The Genelecs only really worked pulled well out into the room which my wife didn't love aesthetically and even then I wasn't getting the same magic I heard through the 8030s in a different space. Ultimately I returned them because the improvement over the Navis was too selective to justify the price tag (the bass definition and dynamics was definitely the main improvement as well as general level of detail) but it made me sad . I've attached a shot of the living room and REW measurements for info.

I've been debating where to go from here to get better sound that the Genelecs hinted was possible but I didn't fully achieve.

I've considered two options here:

1. Try Genelec AIW26 in-wall speakers - perhaps the in-wall positioning helps with SBIR issues and some of the cancellation issues of that corner positioning? I could put an acoustic panel on that left wall next to it to absorb side reflections? If they work it would have the ultimate WAF (and could also be expanded to hidden surround sound down the road) but if it doesn't that's a lot of effort and drywall repair...

2. Try better co-axials - there's definitely a benefit in terms of consistent tone moving around the room with the Elac Navis due to the co-axial which seems really beneficial and noticeable over the 8050s. I'm not yet ready to jump to Genelec 8341/8351 due to the substantial cost differential but some thing more mid-tier like KEF R3 Metas or Mofi SP8 are doable and perhaps bring a more competent co-axial to the space. It's got to have good WAF though.

I'm also going to be swapping out the the Rythmik E15 for 2 x 12" Rythmiks shortly since it doesn't seem pushed that hard and I would prefer more even bass over more volume. I was told a 15" was minimum for my room volume but without a dedicated LFE channel from an HT processor the sub doesn't seem pushed that hard with normal music/2channel movies. 2 x 12" would also potentially allow some higher crossover points that would let me get the 120 -130HZ null I have and music is priority over movies.

What have you found effective for great non-critical listening that can be enjoyed in multiple locations? i.e. the best sound most of the time? Would love to tap the wisdom of the community on this one since changing out speakers, doing room correction etc is pretty time consuming stuff and I can only do so much of it. Yet the Genelecs showed that better might be possible although room acoustics are probably also my ultimate limiting factor.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[GXAlan]

Try the Sonos Era 300. They are surprisingly good for non-critical listening. A stereo pair does sound better. Sonos has a generous return policy.

 

[geek101]

Is that a painting or a tv ?. If it is a painting may be a smaller one can help your left speaker move a bit more to the right. May be you have to look into some absorption that can perform well at 200hz at side or back wall. May be 3.5inch panels?.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I think your results are pretty good, given the room. It's a tough set up/room.

I assume moving the speakers is not an option? If it might be, seeing the rest of the space might provide you with some options from many eyes seeing the possibilities.

Changing speakers will have some effect, but the issue is really the room and placement. Given the current position... here's what I do when faced with a similar situation.

Set the speakers up in an acceptable to all position. Get the best results with changing toe in/out. DSP as needed/desired (since you have this option). Then live with what happens.

THEN, I pull the speakers out and sit in the triangle position for critical listening. You have a chair that is easy to move, so that's an option. Maybe a second set of stands, or use the short ones you have, replace with taller ones for the majority of time position, put the short ones out of the way when not in use. Depending where you want to listen critically, a bit longer speaker cables might be needed.

One thing you can try as another option is to toe things slightly right, both speakers. Try to send first reflections to the right, into the rest of your space. That should make the reflections from the left wall a little less of a concern. That should give you ok sound everywhere in the space (but depends on what is behind the view in your room pic). If you do this, then it is simple to toe them back in and sit up in the triangle position for more critical listening. I have had good luck with that type of set up in very asymmetrical spaces, in terms of filling the entire room with sound.

I would 100% try that before seeking different speakers. You still might want them, but you might see improvement, then you can get a bit more with new speakers, maybe.

 

[Tic]

Thanks for the ideas around pointing the speakers out to the right, it's an interesting idea I haven't tested before- it's true I can also easily slide them around for critical listening, the cords have plenty of spare flex/length so probably worth playing with. I would just need to measure and save a Dirac position so the timing/phase integration was correct for that speaker position.

On the absorption piece I did try placing a 5" kids mattress on the back and side walls temporarily to see if it made much difference but honestly the REW measurements showed little impact. Perhaps a foam mattress is not a very effective absorber vs say dedicated GIK acoustic absorbers. I've also contemplated whether you could cut out drywall and replace a section with absorption panel to limit the visual impact in the room. Has anyone had good effects with asymmetrical treating of only one reflection wall where the speakers are asymmetric in the room?

The painting is actually a cover for the projector screen - it lifts up on gas struts when I want to watch a movie - a way of hiding your home theater in your living room. It was a custom piece painted by family so not going to get replaced by anything smaller in the near term. It was originally done for a previous house which is why it ended up so large on this wall.

 

[geek101]

Did you try REW simulator and see if you can reproduce this?. Then you can try various things , including absorption

 

[johny_2000]

Genelek on a bucket and a stack of books!

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Thanks for the ideas around pointing the speakers out to the right, it's an interesting idea I haven't tested before

I tested it out of necessity, TBH, when it was the best option I had.

Weird things can happen when you do this, that's for sure. I pushed the sound stage to the ceiling and outside the walls when I did this in the past, at the cost of more distortion. At best, it gives you a good "wall of sound" in the room. Given weirdness, here's how I suggest you so this.

First, point the speakers so that first reflections to towards the "empty", as much out of the main space as possible. The hallway, but maybe a bit more to the right depending on what is there. So steeper toe in on the L speaker, very shallow to the right on the R speaker.

Second, if there is a place where you will mostly sit and listen casually, check the center image by ear. I currently use Miles Davis, So What (off of kind of blue), the first trumpet solo. That seems to be pretty sensitive, but I have used the helicopter on Dark Side of the Moon before, listening for a smooth transition across the center. Adjust toe to get the center solid (likely small changes to the L speaker.)

Basically, L/R balance is an issue with asymmetrical set ups.

Third, measure and dirac and such.

The back left corner might be problematic, but the area in front of the speakers (direct) and the area to the right (reflected) should be ok for just having music playing while doing other things.

It's worth a try.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

The painting is actually a cover for the projector screen

I've been thinking about this.

My suggestion is you try to pull the L speaker out a bit and point the back of it towards the side wall, as much as you can. Front edge of the baffle where that low cabinet front edge is? That would be a few inches, but might help... and work for TV with a quick turn.

The R speaker can come out just a smidge wider and forward to maintain balanced distance from the screen, as needed.

I think that's where I would start for an asymmetrical option.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

You are even thinking about in wall speakers? But why are there flat surfaces everywhere in that room and you sit 3-5 m away?

Don't you hear much more detail if you move close to the speakers?
Don't you hear that the room makes the sound and that this setup creates a huuuge amount of ugly roomsound?

A discussion if you should drop a 100 kg instead of 110 kg weight on your feet...

 

[GXAlan]

What have you found effective for great non-critical listening that can be enjoyed in multiple locations?

Thanks for your thoughts!

I still echo my Sonos Era300 for a simple solution for family listening if the SPLs are good enough. Ease of use is the most important element and I think that is the best speaker in their entire lineup. (I owned the Sonos Five, gave them to my cousin; I had the Era 300 but returned them, hoping for an Era500).

This can be a good read to assure you that relaxing your standards is OK.

The Emperor’s New Stereo

I was contacted a few months back by Jose Luis Diaz about an article I wrote for Mix magazine -in 1998. He asked did I have a copy of the original in pdf form. No. I am not the best archivist. :-(…

bobmccarthy.com

As a wildcard idea, what happens if you wire your speakers out of phase? It might make everything diffuse and difficult to localize and be a very easy switch between critical and non critical listening that doesn’t require moving speakers.