Max spl comments? JBL 305p-Kali IN8v2-Revel M16-Elac DBR62

[Paulz]

These all seem like fine speakers in their respective price range, but I can't see how to easily compare them in terms of usable max spl, in this case around 10 feet. The stated specs for the 2 actives are hard to compare, with JBL appearing to claim higher continuous output than the specs from Kali.

As for the 2 passives, there some but not a lot of discussion about max spls. BTW, I've been curious as there often seems to be more discussion about max spl with actives versus passives (which I understand to some extent given the actives use in studios).

For instance, it seems that passive bookshelves are often expected for use in typical use distances in a home stereo setup, while similarly sized actives are often discussed (again, understandably) with much attention paid to their limitations regarding max listening distance.

But in the end they are all just loudspeakers, no?

Anyway, I think any clarification of this matter might make it easier for at least some to compare this aspect of smaller active and passive speakers for home stereo.

Thanks as always for this most excellent site!!

 

[DVDdoug]

As for the 2 passives, there some but not a lot of discussion about max spls.

There is usually a sensitivity spec given as SPL at 1W and 1 meter. From that you can calculate SPL* at the speaker's maximum rated power (or at any given power) and use the inverse square law to compare different distances.


* The power-formula for dB is 10 x log(P/Pref) so if you are calculating dB relative to the 1W reference, that calculated value is added to the sensitivity spec to get the SPL level. i.e. 2W calculates to +3dB (relative to 1W) so 2W is 3dB louder than 1W.

I've forgotten the inverse-square calculation but you can look it up. It won't apply perfectly if the 10-foot loudness is measured in a (reflective) room.

 

[abdo123]

These all seem like fine speakers in their respective price range, but I can't see how to easily compare them in terms of usable max spl, in this case around 10 feet. The stated specs for the 2 actives are hard to compare, with JBL appearing to claim higher continuous output than the specs from Kali.

As for the 2 passives, there some but not a lot of discussion about max spls. BTW, I've been curious as there often seems to be more discussion about max spl with actives versus passives (which I understand to some extent given the actives use in studios).

For instance, it seems that passive bookshelves are often expected for use in typical use distances in a home stereo setup, while similarly sized actives are often discussed (again, understandably) with much attention paid to their limitations regarding max listening distance.

But in the end they are all just loudspeakers, no?

Anyway, I think any clarification of this matter might make it easier for at least some to compare this aspect of smaller active and passive speakers for home stereo.

Thanks as always for this most excellent site!!

even passive speakers have a point where frequency response linearity ( x dB for x voltage) is broken, this phenomenon is called compression.

for example, lets say we have a flat speaker with a sensitivity of 85dB/2.83V. lets say i came across a 'peak' in my movie/music and my amplifier hit it with 20V to produce a 105dB peak.

Is the speaker still flat @ 20V? or did it 'compress' and gave me 103dB @100Hz, 108 dB @ 250Hz and something like 90dB @ 50Hz? In other words, is it still as flat @105dBSPL as it is @85dBSPL?

Erin's reviews usually have a compression test.

In active speakers, some 'small' designs don't have big enough baffles to have a linear response between 80Hz and 300Hz, so what they do is that they boost the frequencies digitally to maintain linearity between 100Hz and 300Hz. However, the amplifier runs out of juice at some point and linearity is completely blown out the window, this phenomenon is often referred to as (amplifier) limiting

the other metric is harmonic distortion, for me total harmonic distortion is audible above 1% for more higher frequencies and 3% for above 100Hz. To be safe typically I aim for 1% THD above 100Hz at my listening levels.

Distortion increases as the signal / sound pressure gets louder; However, audibility of distortion gets lower as the sound pressure increases as well. So you might want to prefer a speaker that have lower compression but higher distortion than a speaker with more compression but lower distortion.

Both metrics can be applied to both passives and actives alike. Amir's reviews only includes distortion, which is a big missed opportunity.

 

[Paulz]

I saw that Kali does but do the others or speakers in general provide max output when compression sets in rather than just max spl, with or without distortion changes?

 

[abdo123]

I saw that Kali does but do the others or speakers in general provide max output when compression sets in rather than just max spl, with or without distortion changes?

Neumann and Genelec do.

Other manufacturers don't care as the target audience usually doesn't care.

 

[Paulz]

So because the Kali and others have a limiter that kicks in when they start to compress, one cannot easily compare them to those without a limiter in terms of the latter's max spl frequency and distortion profile, beyond the effect of the limters on the former?

 

[abdo123]

So because the Kali and others have a limiter that kicks in when they start to compress, one cannot easily compare them to those without a limiter in terms of the latter's max spl frequency and distortion profile, beyond the effect of the limters on the former?

yes if the speaker that is being compared to the Kali is active too.

 

[abdo123]

Compression (passive speaker)

Limiter (Active Speakers)

 

[Paulz]

Verrrry interesting. So can one have a sense of how loudly, in terms of any relevant listening metrics (e.g. distortion, compression-induced frequency anomalies) the two passive standmounts (or others) can be compared with the actives at the (actively limited) spls?

In other words, which might suffer more or less, accuracy-wise, at the level when the active's limiter deploys?

 

[abdo123]

Verrrry interesting. So can one have a sense of how loudly, in terms of any relevant listening metrics (e.g. distortion, compression-induced frequency anomalies) the two passive standmounts (or others) can be compared with the actives at the (actively limited) spls?

In other words, which might suffer more or less, accuracy-wise, at the level when the active's limiter deploys?

I didn't understand your question.

 

[Paulz]

Wow! Those measurements were incredibly helpful. Thank you so much. Is there anyway to look at both the compression effect on both output and distortion levesl during compression?

Thanks again!!

 

[abdo123]

Wow! Those measurements were incredibly helpful. Thank you so much. Is there anyway to look at both the compression effect on both output and distortion levesl during compression?

Thanks again!!

I still don't get it .

 

[Paulz]

Sorry. I realize that I'm out of my depth and don't at all expect to be walked through something beyond my low current or expected understanding of the objectives!! So no worries about that!

I was just trying to get an impression on the effects of compression and distortion between the speakers mentioned at the levels limited for the actives.

Like I said though, I know my question might be incoherent as my objective understanding is and will be quite limited!

Believe me, I don't expect more from a site that is so objectively important, both to listeners and the market.

Word.

 

[abdo123]

Sorry. I realize that I'm out of my depth and don't at all expect to be walked through something beyond my low current or expected understanding of the objectives!! So no worries about that!

I was just trying to get an impression on the effects of compression and distortion between the speakers mentioned at the levels limited for the actives.

Like I said though, I know my question might be incoherent as my objective understanding is and will be quite limited!

Believe me, I don't expect more from a site that is so objectively important, both to listeners and the market.

Word.

I'm not an expert either, just a random hobbyist on the internet, the majority of people here are self taught too so we all have gaps in our knowledge.

so if you would try to explain your questions in a way I can easily comprehend I will try my best answer them.

 

[Paulz]

Thanks for that really. How about just asking which of these speakers might be flatter either at say 85 db or 92 db. And what about distortion profiles at those respective volumes at 10 feet?

Again, please dont worry about responding once you realize my technical limitations... brain injury

I respect this site for exactly the way it is!!

 

[abdo123]

Revel M16 Harmonic Distortion @ 96dB at 1 meter

Kali 8 IN-V2 Harmonic Distortion @ 96dB at 1 meter. -40 is 1%, -30 is 3% .etc

Elac DBR-62 Harmonic Distortion @ 96dB at 1 meter.

JBL LSR305p Harmonic Distortion @ 96dB at 1 meter.

So in terms of which speaker can get the loudest it's a split between ELAC-DBR62 and the Revel M16, with the ELAC being a very teeeeny tiny bit cleaner (anamolies are lower in frequency, our sensitivity to distortion drops as the frequency drops).

They're both relatively flat and they both have the same sensitivity. so just pick whichever one you like best visually i guess

 

[Paulz]

Very nice, thanks, that helps. Just cant equate the vertices distortion scales between the actives and passives. Again, my bad.

 

[Paulz]

I mean 2 seem to be in percent, the other two in db. Is there a way to easily compare or transpose the two vertical metrics, or am I missing it again?

If so, I humbly back out of this. Much help anyway!

 

[abdo123]

I mean 2 seem to be in percent, the other two in db. Is there a way to easily compare or transpose the two vertical metrics, or am I missing it again?

If so, I humbly back out of this. Much help anyway!

you can use this online calculator http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm

but generally -40 dB is 1% and -30 is 3%

 

[antennaguru]

Let's not forget that humans hear down to below 10 dB SPL which is about the level of hum from a 100 Watt light bulb turned on with a normal on/off switch, and that being exposed to over 88 dB SPL for 40 hours a week has OSHA implications as this level can cause permanent hearing damage.