• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Mastering recordings on CDs

Definitely, "Californication" was a product, very well-made, precisely designed, thought out, and at the same time, a very good product. If it were a bad product, it wouldn't have sold in such huge quantities.
Don't agree. It sold well despite the mastering not because of it.

I bought it when it came out since I'm a fan of RHCP since their first album. I didn't buy it because of the loud mastering, I didn't not buy it because of the loud mastering.

'Blood Sugar Sex Magic' has good dynamic range, the CD scoring 14/12/15 on the DR Database. It sold over 14 million copies (Californication - 17 million).

The follow up album to that - 'One Hot Minute' sold less than half as many copies. Why? Because musically it's just not remotely as good.

People are buying for the music, not the mastering, there's no sales advantage I can see for killing the dynamic range at least with this particular band.
 
If I like the music, I just don't care about DR, compression or clipping. I have a ton of music, and there's more than enough choice out there.

Conversely, there may be be some music that I dislike owing to these 'features', more than because of the music itself and don't realise it.

A 5 second sample of any track will usually determine if there's a chance of me liking the whole track or not. Maybe I react negatively to some music for entirely technical reasons, but mostly because it's just crap music!
 
Don't agree. It sold well despite the mastering not because of it.

I bought it when it came out since I'm a fan of RHCP since their first album. I didn't buy it because of the loud mastering, I didn't not buy it because of the loud mastering.

'Blood Sugar Sex Magic' has good dynamic range, the CD scoring 14/12/15 on the DR Database. It sold over 14 million copies (Californication - 17 million).

The follow up album to that - 'One Hot Minute' sold less than half as many copies. Why? Because musically it's just not remotely as good.

People are buying for the music, not the mastering, there's no sales advantage I can see for killing the dynamic range at least with this particular band.

Of course, Californication didn't sell so well because it had such a famous mastering. This mastering was one element of its success. Not the most important one. It was a time, 1999, when such mastering wasn't yet common, but it was already significant enough that everyone started mastering their recordings this way. A little later, such mastering would become the absolute market standard, a poor standard.
In the 21st century, mastering recordings in the style of the early '90s, like Blood Sugar Sex Magic, will be hard to find, leaving aside niche music productions.

In the car, it's acceptable; on the street, on the subway, on a smartphone, it's acceptable; at home, it's unacceptable.
 
Last edited:
It was a time, 1999, when such mastering wasn't yet common
The loudness wars predate it by some years. Second Oasis album, 1995, scores a 5/3/10

This is often cited as the recording that started it all. 22 million sales. Again, I think due to the music not the mastering. Sure there have been plenty of albums that were mastered very hot but sold next to nothing.
 
Objectively speaking, more dynamic mastering is better. This is obvious, but music producers prefer to produce recordings with a smaller dynamic range by increasing the volume. This is because this has been the market standard for many, many years.
On the other hand, if we took a random group of 1,000 people and asked them to choose from among various recordings the ones they felt sounded best, the overwhelming majority would choose the recordings that played louder.
This is the main reason for this particular mastering method.
 
Don't agree. It sold well despite the mastering not because of it.

I bought it when it came out since I'm a fan of RHCP since their first album. I didn't buy it because of the loud mastering, I didn't not buy it because of the loud mastering.
Really, your personal opinion on the album doesn't resolve this question :)
'Blood Sugar Sex Magic' has good dynamic range, the CD scoring 14/12/15 on the DR Database. It sold over 14 million copies (Californication - 17 million).

The follow up album to that - 'One Hot Minute' sold less than half as many copies. Why? Because musically it's just not remotely as good.

People are buying for the music, not the mastering, there's no sales advantage I can see for killing the dynamic range at least with this particular band.
The sad reality is that nobody really knows if a highly compressed song helps it sell better. This whole decades-long Loudness War is really based on zero evidence... sounds familiar, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
 
Psytrance (psychedelic trance) is a subgenre of electronic dance music characterized by fast tempos (usually 135–150 BPM), hypnotic, steady 4x4 beats, and complex, layered synthetic sounds with a cosmic and "acidic" sound.
The main goal of psytrance is to induce an altered state of consciousness in the listener. This is achieved, among other things, through very loud mastering.
DJs playing live sets combine tracks from different producers. If a track were mixed more quietly (more dynamically), it would sound flat and lacking energy to the audience after transitioning from a louder track. Therefore, creators prefer to pump up the master to its limits to ensure their track stands out powerfully at the party. -AI
 
Last edited:
The sad reality is that nobody really knows if a highly compressed song helps it sell better
We don't know that. The people selling them seem to think it does. Is that based on a hunch or actual hard research? Do you know for fact that it's just based on a hunch?
Really, your personal opinion on the album doesn't resolve this question
The point I was making is that when a very popular, long established band release a new record, it's going to sell a lot of copies regardless of the production values. It's not an indicator of any causal link to the way it's mastered.
 
1
The point I was making is that when a very popular, long established band release a new record, it's going to sell a lot of copies regardless of the production values. It's not an indicator of any causal link to the way it's mastered.

This year saw the release of albums by pop and rock icons the Rolling Stones and Madonna.
The recordings on both albums are very loud and very flat.
I wonder why?
 
This year saw the release of albums by pop and rock icons the Rolling Stones and Madonna.
The recordings on both albums are very loud and very flat.
I wonder why?
Because they think it will sell more that way but as we've just been discussing we don't know if that's actually true.

They were heavily compressing going back to the fifties because the song punched better on mono radio sets, it's not a new idea. I guess that probably did help them sell more singles back in the days when music buying was mostly singles and exposure to new music was mostly via AM radio. Does it still work? They seem to think so.
 
We don't know that. The people selling them seem to think it does. Is that based on a hunch or actual hard research? Do you know for fact that it's just based on a hunch?
There is actually a study about it


To reflect on it, I will paste a bit an AI summary:

I went back to the actual Vickers paper rather than relying on the abstract, because my previous wording was a bit too strong.


The 2010 AES paper is Earl Vickers, The Loudness War: Background, Speculation, and Recommendations. The 2011 JAES article Do Louder, Hypercompressed Recordings Sell Better? is a shorter, slightly updated version.


The conclusion is not simply “loudness doesn’t correlate with sales.” It’s more nuanced—and actually more interesting.


What he found​


Vickers looked at commercially successful recordings and compared loudness/dynamic-range measures with their sales/chart performance. His conclusion was that among albums that reached the Billboard Top 200, he found no evidence that greater hypercompression correlated with better sales performance.


Vickers himself later clarified this in the AES discussion:


“I don’t see evidence of a correlation between hypercompression and better sales among the albums that reached the Billboard top 200”


But he immediately adds an important qualification:


“the albums that charted did indeed tend to be more compressed than those that did not.”


That’s important. His data therefore cannot tell us that compression had no commercial effect. There is a selection problem: perhaps compression helped records get noticed/chart in the first place, while further compression didn’t determine how well they subsequently performed. Or perhaps successful commercial genres simply happened to be mastered louder. Correlation can’t distinguish those explanations.


Listener preference​


He also examines the assumption that people actually prefer hypercompressed recordings. The evidence he reviews doesn’t support the simplistic idea that more compression → greater preference.


This is subtly different from the familiar loudness effect. If you present essentially the same material at different playback levels without matching them, people can favor the louder presentation. But that does not demonstrate that listeners prefer the distortion/reduced dynamics necessary to make a recording intrinsically louder.


That’s one of the conceptual mistakes Vickers is attacking.


And his game-theory argument is important​


His explanation of how the loudness war could persist without evidence that it increases sales is essentially a competitive arms race.


Imagine every label thinks:


If everyone else’s record is loud and mine isn’t, mine might sound weak by comparison.


Then making your record loud becomes individually rational even if nobody has demonstrated that the collective escalation benefits anyone. Once competitors do it, the perceived cost of not participating can be sufficient to keep the process going.


That’s why his 2010 abstract carefully says:


“Evidence is presented to question the assumption that loudness is significantly correlated to listener preference and sales rankings.”


It doesn’t say “we demonstrate that loudness has no effect on sales.”


And Vickers himself later said in response to discussion of an aggressively compressed but highly rated radio station:


“It’s hard to know whether overcompression has any relationship to that station’s popularity.”


He suspected the phenomenon was driven substantially by assumptions and what Bob Katz called “loudness envy.”


So, correcting what I said earlier​


My earlier:


“research … found no significant relationship between loudness and sales ranking”


made the evidence sound stronger than it is.


A more accurate statement is:


Vickers found no evidence that greater hypercompression predicted better sales ranking among albums that already reached the Billboard Top 200. Interestingly, charting albums were more compressed than non-charting albums. His study therefore neither proves that compression helped sales nor that it didn’t.


And that means the answer to your earlier incredulous question really is remarkably close to yes:


After decades of loudness war, we apparently still don’t have good causal evidence showing that hypercompressing a recording makes people buy more of it.


We know the industry believed it could provide a competitive advantage. We know louder presentation can create immediate perceptual impact. We know charting records tended to be more compressed. But the causal chain


more compression → greater consumer preference → greater sales


was apparently never established.


Which makes Californication a particularly bad example for anyone trying to infer consumer preference from sales: its enormous sales cannot tell us whether the mastering helped, hurt, or made essentially no difference to those sales.
All in all, evidence is inconclusive at best, and it cannot prove it either way.
 
I think the album with the greatest amount of sustained clipping that I've dealt with is an older album from Infected Mushroom called Vicious Delicious. I remember a fairly deep amount of clipping before declipping, and a very high DR rating after declipping. I can listen to those tracks for a few minutes now, but the genre isn't my favorite, so I can't say that I really listen to them voluntarily.


You talk as if you make a living doing this to music tracks. If this is a true statement, it is my suggestion to simply agree-to-disagree on what constitutes "acceptable mastering practices".

Personally, I find that the illusion of realism in acoustic tracks basically disappears once the DR rating falls below ~17 (dB). I've written about this on diyAudio in years past. For instrumentation that doesn't support a 17 dB crest factor, I find the illusion of realism to be solely based in psychoacoustic cues that give the listener a sense of ASW and surround channel delays--meaning, it takes more than two independent channels of music to create a sense of realism, in my experience.

YMMV.

Chris
Vicious Delicious is excellent for stressing lossy encoders/decoders :)

There is/was an old bug with the Squeezebox3 ( omg 15 years ago or something ) the onbord mp3 decoder don't use floating point math and sounds quite bad with this track in mp3

Decoding on your server with a better mp3 decoder solves the issue .

So yes good track to stress all kinds of audio software .
 
Because they think it will sell more that way but as we've just been discussing we don't know if that's actually true.

We don't know; there are no clear arguments for or against. However, what would have happened if both albums had been produced with a DR of 14 and an RMS of -18 dB? We don't know how this would have affected sales, but if listeners have been accustomed to loud mastering over the past two decades, I fear that both albums would have sounded weak, pale, even old-fashioned, and anachronistic.
 
I think that loud mastering, and therefore a low dynamic range, as long as there's no clipping, isn't inherently bad. It all depends on the type of music.
Loud mastering works perfectly for genres like trance, psy-trance, and other similar genres. It makes sense; it serves a specific purpose. Regardless of whether we like it or not.

However, in the case of symphonic music, flattening the dynamic range, i.e., loud mastering, makes no sense, as it destroys the charm of that genre.
Therefore, each type of music requires appropriate mastering, appropriate for that genre.
 
I think that loud mastering, and therefore a low dynamic range, as long as there's no clipping, isn't inherently bad. It all depends on the type of music.
Loud mastering works perfectly for genres like trance, psy-trance, and other similar genres. It makes sense; it serves a specific purpose. Regardless of whether we like it or not.

However, in the case of symphonic music, flattening the dynamic range, i.e., loud mastering, makes no sense, as it destroys the charm of that genre.
Therefore, each type of music requires appropriate mastering, appropriate for that genre.
I think that the amount of compression needed is also very dependent on the playback level.

A more optimal situation would have been to store a lot of the compression processing as metadata on the original tracks. Then you can have the playback equipment apply this and have some levers to adapt to the various environments and playback levels.

It would be nice if they would bring Californication as an Atmos album. Generally, these offer a lot more dynamic range. Would be a nice comparison against the original.
 
I think that loud mastering, and therefore a low dynamic range, as long as there's no clipping, isn't inherently bad. It all depends on the type of music.
Loud mastering works perfectly for genres like trance, psy-trance, and other similar genres. It makes sense; it serves a specific purpose. Regardless of whether we like it or not.

However, in the case of symphonic music, flattening the dynamic range, i.e., loud mastering, makes no sense, as it destroys the charm of that genre.
Therefore, each type of music requires appropriate mastering, appropriate for that genre.
There's a case to be made for it being an artistic decision with some types of music, totally agree. My main problem with it is when they remaster great albums from the 1970s and ruin them. I wasted a fair bit of money on remastered classics before I cottoned on to that.
 
My main problem with it is when they remaster great albums from the 1970s and ruin them.
I think "remaster edition" is a brilliant marketing slogan. I think it was invented to sell the same music again.
These newer remastered versions, for the most part, are significantly inferior to the versions previously released on CD. Not to mention the bonus tracks, etc.
 
I think that the amount of compression needed is also very dependent on the playback level.
Listening situation is probably even more important. In a car is very different to your listening room. In a bus/train/plane it will depend on whether you have decent active and/or passive noise cancellation.
A more optimal situation would have been to store a lot of the compression processing as metadata on the original tracks. Then you can have the playback equipment apply this and have some levers to adapt to the various environments and playback levels.
I've had the same thought. You'd need to get everyone to agree to follow it though, similar to the standards for film/movie audio. I'm not sure how we'd get from here to there - the game theory aspect will keep them doing it unless someone can supply sufficient external pressure, and I don't see anyone big enough, let alone with an incentive to do it. Streaming companies applying ReplayGain hasn't changed anything.
 
Psytrance (psychedelic trance) is a subgenre of electronic dance music characterized by fast tempos (usually 135–150 BPM), hypnotic, steady 4x4 beats, and complex, layered synthetic sounds with a cosmic and "acidic" sound.
The main goal of psytrance is to induce an altered state of consciousness in the listener. This is achieved, among other things, through very loud mastering.
DJs playing live sets combine tracks from different producers. If a track were mixed more quietly (more dynamically), it would sound flat and lacking energy to the audience after transitioning from a louder track. Therefore, creators prefer to pump up the master to its limits to ensure their track stands out powerfully at the party. -AI


 
Back
Top Bottom