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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

RexrothPigeon said:
Congrats on having gear you love! that's an important thing. But for a person who claims my words don't apply to them, you seem awfully defensive. Anyway, there are plenty of exceptions to the audiophile treadmill of confusion, but it exists, and the industry wants it to continue. ASR offers a rare and special hand to those wishing to step off it. If that's not you, great!

Let's be clear, though, that people who love their non-performant equipment may love it for a lot of different reasons, and it's very possible they have little to do with sound. I love lots of things I own that aren't really that great--I like how they look, I like how they feel, I like the value proposition, I don't want to shop, I have sentimental attachment, etc. Nothing wrong with that until I start claiming it's as good as or better than superior things, or I reject the validity of measurable superiority in the first place, at which point I'm in the realm of religion on an audio science website :)
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Again I have no dispute with the proposition that scientific testing will determine which device will pass the most true signal. However there are many things outside of specifications that cause someone, especially an audiophile who already loves equipment, to love a piece of gear and when they love those things it can and often does cause them to also believe it sounds better regardless of specifications. Audiophiles generally don't care where this good feeling comes from. It doesn't matter to them, they don't really care. There not scientists. All they know is that it feels good and sounds good to them and they love it. And they are not wrong. They really do love it.. It's their "best" even if it's not my best or your best Thank you for the respectful conversation.
 
Proud Audiophile said:
There not scientists. All they know is that it feels good and sounds good to them and they love it. And they are not wrong. They really do love it.. It's their "best" even if it's not my best or your best
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This is not disputable, just as some people believe in various religious things or the easter bunny or astrology. The entire world of audiophile discourse is about that. This forum exists to provide an alternative to faith-based audiophilia and it does so by focusing on audio science. Many of us, myself included, found our way here in an effort to get off the circle of confusion treadmill cultivated by the snake-oil-infested predatory hi-fi industry, because all of us are susceptible to biases and misconceptions. This is a great place to cut through that stuff and get to the truth, and I for one have found doing so to be liberating and empowering--plus, my music has never sounded better :)
 
RexrothPigeon said:
This is not disputable, just as some people believe in various religious things or the easter bunny or astrology. The entire world of audiophile discourse is about that. This forum exists to provide an alternative to faith-based audiophilia and it does so by focusing on audio science. Many of us, myself included, found our way here in an effort to get off the circle of confusion treadmill cultivated by the snake-oil-infested predatory hi-fi industry, because all of us are susceptible to biases and misconceptions. This is a great place to cut through that stuff and get to the truth, and I for one have found doing so to be liberating and empowering--plus, my music has never sounded better :)
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I have made no comment about "the snake-oil-infested predatory hi-fi industry". I don't deal with salesman. That really has nothing to do with the discussion. Perhaps your dispute is with them instead of the audiophile that simply loves the gear that makes them happy. Have a good evening.
 
Proud Audiophile said:
I have made no comment about "the snake-oil-infested predatory hi-fi industry". I don't deal with salesman. That really has nothing to do with the discussion. Perhaps your dispute is with them instead of the audiophile that simply loves the gear that makes them happy. Have a good evening.
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Yes, and none of my posts are about you specifically. If my comments don't apply to you, you don't need to take offense.
 
Proud Audiophile said:
I have made no comment about "the snake-oil-infested predatory hi-fi industry". I don't deal with salesman. That really has nothing to do with the discussion. Perhaps your dispute is with them instead of the audiophile that simply loves the gear that makes them happy. Have a good evening.
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Some people take issue with premium-priced products whose specifications seem inadequate for the cost, if quality is judged mainly by performance metrics, that is. They believe many buyers are being swayed by marketing hype and are indignant that the hype actually works and people are buying products that do not deserve to be bought.

That said, listening to music is a pleasurable pastime rather than a technical exercise, and people do acquire things based, mostly, on subjective criteria -- as you mentioned above.

BTW, some of the claims made are outrageous & funny -- check out the "snake oil" thread!
 
Proud Audiophile said:
My advice is always to consider audio specifications carefully but buy what brings you the most happiness because that is what the purchase decision is all about.
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Sure, but you are massively simplifying the typical buying decision.

If you walk into a store (the few that are left) and try to figure out if a given amp has enough power for your speakers, how would you do that? Manufacturers lie or otherwise misrepresent the capabilities of their products. Some combinations of speakers and amps will destroy one or the other or both. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't happen to someone else.

If you connect a bunch of your components together and get unexpected hissing or buzzing does that mean that you need to upgrade or buy a little preventative gizmo?

If a speaker sounds good in-store but not as good at home, what does that mean?

Does power quality affect anything? Does it make sense to buy surge protectors to protect your expensive (or inexpensive but well-loved) gear?

As soon as you get to any level of practical question, the joy part becomes sidelined to confusion. Particularly when trying to discuss differences in what is heard, there's a need for and return to science. That's the main issue, actually. If you open any given publication or any given audio product description there's a mix of scientific and prosaic language. How do you assess that? Every audiophile medium or discussion or presentation and so on uses this mix of language.

Say you get to the point where you can actually (not pretend to) hear distortion and spectral imbalance and understand what causes them in the signal chain issues and are generally very knowledgable. A lot of us have got to that point and become insufferable jerks. It takes a lot more learning of a different kind to appreciate a given situation for what it is. It is kind of like being married for a long time and recognizing your partner's flaws and limits, staying together regardless and being happy. It's there you can buy gear of any kind you like, provided it doesn't irritate your partner too much.

If everyone was honest, there were no significant technical problems and so much money wasn't at stake, none of this would pose an issue. It's because the situation is so confusing and there are so many true concerns, including the concern of disambiguating what's technically superior vs. personally more satisfying (two different questions fundamentally that must be made to meet) that at some point the science becomes inescapable. After all, regular people wrote those papers and did the work, sometimes being motivated by deep fascination and love for music and gear. So you end up rediscovering the same things in many places, even when those things feel initially distant.
 
Vl_Po said:
I think it's pretty simple. Measurements provide a reliable starting point. And then figure out your own preferences ;)
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Agnosticism is just chicken atheism.
 
RexrothPigeon said:
he’s saying that an agnostic is just an atheist without courage
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It's starting to make more sense now :) Thank you :)

But I actually meant something slightly different...

What I'm saying is that even if an individual prioritizes their subjective perception over science, research, and measurements, their path to audio nirvana will still be significantly shorter if they choose their starting hardware based on that same science, research, and measurements.

As for me, I long ago stopped paying attention to all the armchair chatter and prefer to rely on properly conducted measurements, at the very least.
 
Axo1989 said:
The function of the thread, and the reason for not closing it.

The facts that the thread is long and repeats the fundamentals demonstrates its success. That’s 880 pages of ‘silliness’ that aren’t burdening other threads.
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We are 'behind the shed'.
 
Axo1989 said:
The function of the thread, and the reason for not closing it.

The facts that the thread is long and repeats the fundamentals demonstrates its success. That’s 880 pages of ‘silliness’ that aren’t burdening other threads.
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No, I think you missed the point and @Mort nailed it in post #17,598.
 
Newman said:
Then why did you suggest closing it?
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Mostly I was joking, but if we want to be serious... This thread, the snake oil thread and a couple of others had an original purpose, but have become echo chambers of silliness. Carry on as I know you will.
 
Mr. Widget said:
Mostly I was joking, but if we want to be serious... This thread, the snake oil thread and a couple of others had an original purpose, but have become echo chambers of silliness. Carry on as I know you will.
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Try the unwatch feature if a thread's continued existence bothers you, but it is correct that some threads can be repetitive.

Another clue is Amir authored this thread and states its ongoing purpose in the OP. ;)
 
Proud Audiophile said:
A task i am totally unqualified to perform. As a result I have no choice but to rely on my ears and emotions
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No, you do have another choice. If you engage with a group of engineers and scientist on an ongoing human level - such as those here at ASR. You can work out which you can trust to guide you in the interpretation of the science.

We even trust unknown engineers and scientists with our lives every day. Such as when we use our electrical devices expecting not to be electrocuted. Or get in our cars and expect them not to spread us all over the motorway. :-)
 
antcollinet said:
Only when evidence based. Evidence does not include "I can hear it in sighted listening"

Questioning of established science based on nothing is not fundamental to science itself - nor anything else.
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who said anything about "based on nothing" ?
 
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