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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

agreed.
I have not argued against measurements, as I agree that measurements are informative ... just against measurements as the destination. The destination is your ears in your room and your own personal preferences.
And the again all measurement are not equal.
Electronic measurement can tell you all you need to know, no need to hear, we can measure better than we can hear.
Speaker measurement is not as black and white, measurements can tell a lot but our final preference are still up to what we like best, need to be careful and aware of subjective bias.
Then there is room measurement, since room has as the biggest impact on what we ear, and room measurement is difficult not only to do but even more to interpret, a lot still has to be evaluated by the human interface.
So yes measurement is a blessing, going without them is driving blind, but there is more to reach audio nirvana than just measurements.
 
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But not much more.
Keith
 
And the again all measurement are not equal.
Electronic measurement can tell you all you need to know, no need to hear, we can measure better than we can hear.
Speaker measurement is not as black and white, measurements can tell a lot but our final preference are still up to what we like best,

Yes, and how is that any different for any other piece of gear, not just speakers?

need to be careful and aware of subjective bias.


Indeed, the fundamental fact is that deciding what you 'like best' , if done sighted, is influenced by factors that aren't necessarily audio-based (or aren't inherent to the audio performance, e.g., level mismatch).
So, what does 'being careful' literally entail in this case?

Then there is room measurement, since room has as the biggest impact on what we ear, and room measurement is difficult not only to do but even more to interpret, a lot still has to be evaluated by the human interface.
So yes measurement is a blessing, going without them is driving blind, but there is more to reach audio nirvana than just measurements.

If you're going to keep chucking biased impressions into the mix, there is no end to the roundelay. What is this 'more'? Is it something about the audio, or is it a non-audio factor? If the latter, fine, there's no mystery about that. 'Be careful' about making claims from sighted impression.
 
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agreed.
I have not argued against measurements, as I agree that measurements are informative ... just against measurements as the destination. The destination is your ears in your room and your own personal preferences.
It's also the level of ineptitude of your criticisms that has attracted correction.
 
It's also the level of ineptitude of your criticisms that has attracted correction.
lol... ok. And this current criticism of yours is ... what? Again, thanks for stooping low, Newman, to prove one of my salient points about many "audiophiles"... insufferable enough to taint the hobby. And we wonder why more people aren't into it...? Could it be they don't want to hang around the likes of... us?
 
I said that (without saying what the level was...you assumed I was stooping low) because you haven't admitted to the corrections, or to any of the key points and implications of those corrections, namely :-
  • you have been confusing Harman research on headphone FR preferences with loudspeakers, hence led yourself to completely incorrect conclusions about how much individual preferences do and do not vary. Agreed?
  • the headphone research indicates that our preferences outside the bass are incredibly uniform, which implies that measurements can be more than just 'an input', but an initial destination. A destination that one could assume with high confidence need not be adjusted outside the bass. And even if at an individual level one would prefer a bit of adjustment, it would be far more effective and logical to get it via EQ in the signal path, where one can tweak with much more precision and repetition than by changing transducers. Which leads to the conclusion that there is a huge amount of merit in selecting the sonics of transducers entirely from measurements (then sub-selecting from non-sonic factors like appearance, brand bias etc), and treating that as a final destination as far as the transducers themselves are involved. Then EQ to final taste, rather than changing transducers (at relatively huge expense, coarse FR adjustment, and almost certainly using a proven broken method of sonic assessment, sighted listening).
  • the above logic applies to loudspeakers too, even though the experimental evidence is more blurred by room effects and stereo crosstalk problems.
Plus, you had just given a 'like' to krabapple's request that we drop the "measurements are everything" focus on "everything", then immediately re-posted that measurements can't be the destination, which is just another way of saying "everything". So, if you are agreeing to drop that aspect of your argument, what's left? What is your remaining objection to selecting transducer sonics from (the right suite of) measurements?

PS I'm happy to admit that I could have chosen a softer word than ineptitude. Apologies. But honestly, a lot of audiophiles who come onto this site to dismiss or refuse the findings of audio science, and misuse experimental results in their arguments, have a lot worse than ineptitude in their intent, they are flat out trolling. And they get really tiresome to deal with by responding as if they are here to learn when they aren't, and sharp retorts can slip out. So it would be really nice if you can show that you are listening in good faith to evidence-based feedback on your posts.

cheers
 
I think the thread title is delightful, I smile every time I see it rising to the top again when I log on. And then when I look at the latest updates and see some people arguing about the title when it seems they never even bothered to read Amir's opening post, it often makes me laugh.

Carry on! hahahaha
 
I don't object if you select your transducers, or anything else, based solely on measurements. Personally I like measurements as a general consideration but select ultimately on the basis of how much I like the sound, look, size, etc., so you can call those criteria whatever you will.

I'd like to point out a couple things overall, though. 1. skepticism of current science is fundamental to science itself... 2. if "the current science" were the sole answer to anything, then opinions, including your own and my own, would be totally irrelevant and so 5,179 messages would be a complete waste of breath.
 
1. skepticism of current science is fundamental to science itself...
Only when evidence based. Evidence does not include "I can hear it in sighted listening"

Questioning of established science based on nothing is not fundamental to science itself - nor anything else.
 
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skepticism of current science is fundamental to science itself...
Sure, but scepticism based on what? 99% (probably 1% more than that but I’ll cut a bit of slack) of the scepticism you see on audio forums is based on the research findings being inconsistent with the reader’s sighted listening experiences and the sighted reviewing reports from self-appointed guru reviewers.

Such scepticism means nothing, and will never tell anyone anything about sound waves coming out of audio gear. It is not a valid basis of objection. Pretending that it is valid or even scientific is an attempt to delude the audience — and perhaps even more importantly, oneself. (I saw a recent article by climate change deniers who claimed that they were being more scientific than people who accepted the scientific consensus, because they were being more sceptical, and scepticism is a hallmark of the scientific approach — !!!??? The sheer gall!)

Scepticism of science is the playground of the expert science community, because their scepticism within their own field draws on their extensive reading and deep understanding of the field, the data, the context, the prior science. That's how they progress their field. But when a layman says "I'm sceptical and remember, that's good science", we know it is actually disguised denialism, a common trope drawn from the science denier's playbook. Funny how these sceptical laymen never show the slightest scepticism of any science that confirms their intuition or their sighted listening impressions, hey?

So, one needs to be careful about scepticism, too. It can be for all the wrong reasons. I can easily see through the self-serving scepticism that is such an ongoing feature of audio discussion forums. It is literally scepticism based on the inconvenience of the truth that the research has indicated.

I am sceptical about audio research. There isn’t enough unbiased money in it, and not enough money overall. From about the late 80s to early 2010s the private money that Dr Harman threw into academic non-profit audio research, like a benefactor, was wildly exceptional. With more unbiased money would come larger experiments with more expense put into experimental design, and more of them, plus, importantly, more validation experiments to validate unexpected conclusions from prior research.

But if that money was there, we still would complain. Because the stuff that ‘we’ want to see re-proven and re-validated with ‘more and better’ research, over and over and over again, are not what researchers are interested in, because to the research community those things are actually done deals but we audiophiles just can’t bring ourselves to accept the inconvenience they pose by contradicting our sighted home listening experiences. Stuff like DSD vs PCM, high-res vs standard-res, valve vs transistor, cable vs cable, which loudspeaker driver material, NFB vs non-NFB — in a nutshell, seeking confirmation of every sighted listening experience, and only believing the research if it confirms sighted impressions. If research inconveniently contradicts sighted experiences, then it is ‘flawed’ and deserves ‘healthy scepticism’. You think researchers, no matter how moneyed and independent, would want to step on that treadmill? Not a chance.

So yes, I am sceptical, but I am also rational about it, and that means two things: accepting the working conclusions from the best available research as the basis for proceeding; and, NOT entertaining doubts based on sighted listening impressions. If someone expresses ‘healthy scepticism’ of the best available research I have seen, I hope I will get an answer when I ask them for the equal or better contradictory research that they are drawing their scepticism from. That would be most welcome, and a pleasant change.

cheers
 
There are problems where science comes up helpless and clueless. Not even the biggest brains can convincingly explain a hypothesis that lacks causality. Some of you say my ears are my guide, and you're right: they've narrowed things down to a bracket within which everything sounds right. Those who say technical specs and scientific evidence must be our guidelines are also right.


Here is the situation. Your ears are your ears, and they will not fix my problem. My speakers have totally different characteristics from yours, and therefore different requirements; they will never sound the way yours please you in your room. High current output is a must for me but may be a disaster for you. My ears prefer the warmth of valve harmonics; you're after clinical accuracy. Whatever your amp's output measures, it amounts to nothing unless the signal chain and the transducers are good enough to handle it.


There is a cause behind every nice-sounding setup, and usually a couple of causes behind a not-so-great one. Let's focus on the cause first.
 
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I think it's pretty simple. Measurements provide a reliable starting point. And then figure out your own preferences ;)
 
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The problem for me is twofold.

First as an audiophile, non scientist, when someone points to science to validate a claim I have no ability to determine the quality of that science. I can not determine if it is flawed because I do not know enough about the science to make that determination..

Second it is important to understand the difference between accepted science and expert opinion. Scientific experts have opinions about their area of expertise but their opinion does not equate with scientific proof. Experts often disagree on matters of opinion related to their area of expertise. Scientists of all types love to assume that their opinion equates to scientific proof. It does not. That's why they argue all the time. I am stuck trying to determine if there is a degree of scientific consensus that is compelling enough to equate to scientific proof.. A task i am totally unqualified to perform. As a result I have no choice but to rely on my ears and emotions in addition to what I can deduce as scientific fact to determine what ultimately sounds best to me.

The question presents a false choice. That measurements are either all or nothing. The obvious third choice is excluded by the question. Just as false as the similar often stated choice that one is either in the objective camp or the subjective camp. Making a decision about what audio products sound best to you requires one to freely flow between the two camps. In my opinion both "camps" are wrong by utilizing the ridged approach assumed by the question. Scientists and artists alike need to get over themselves in thinking that they alone have all the answers in determining what audio gear is "Best".
 
The problem for me is twofold.

First as an audiophile, non scientist, when someone points to science to validate a claim I have no ability to determine the quality of that science. I can not determine if it is flawed because I do not know enough about the science to make that determination..

Second it is important to understand the difference between accepted science and expert opinion. Scientific experts have opinions about their area of expertise but their opinion does not equate with scientific proof. Experts often disagree on matters of opinion related to their area of expertise. Scientists of all types love to assume that their opinion equates to scientific proof. It does not. That's why they argue all the time. I am stuck trying to determine if there is a degree of scientific consensus that is compelling enough to equate to scientific proof.. A task i am totally unqualified to perform. As a result I have no choice but to rely on my ears and emotions in addition to what I can deduce as scientific fact to determine what ultimately sounds best to me.

The question presents a false choice. That measurements are either all or nothing. The obvious third choice is excluded by the question. Just as false as the similar often stated choice that one is either in the objective camp or the subjective camp. Making a decision about what audio products sound best to you requires one to freely flow between the two camps. In my opinion both "camps" are wrong by utilizing the ridged approach assumed by the question. Scientists and artists alike need to get over themselves in thinking that they alone have all the answers in determining what audio gear is "Best".
There's nothing preventing you from learning. In fact it's a pretty simple journey. Your position makes sense only if there is no way to test things, gain new knowledge or find the limits of current knowledge.

Here's a speaker from 1921 vs. a speaker from 2018. With a little work and a little book-reading, the more nuanced differences found in contemporary measurements become as apparent as the big difference you see below.

1788741896018.png


 
There's nothing preventing you from learning. In fact it's a pretty simple journey. Your position makes sense only if there is no way to test things, gain new knowledge or find the limits of current knowledge.

Here's a speaker from 1921 vs. a speaker from 2018. With a little work and a little book-reading, the more nuanced differences found in contemporary measurements become as apparent as the big difference you see below.

View attachment 556986

I agree but you seem to suggest that a member of a discipline can only learn from members of the same discipline. I am suggesting that cross discipline learning is helpful especially when the question science trying to answer crosses over into the science of personal preference.

You can't stop at specifications and call it a day. Audiophiles want equipment that brings them joy. That is the ultimate goal, joy Not specifications. Science can try to determine what specifications may do that and are successful to a degree but ultimately there are many more factors involved unrelated to the physical science of specifications that determine what gear we love the most. These factors are outside the expertise of audio science and are personal and unique to the individual. That's why the physical sciences can tell us what gear is the most accurate but not what gear would bring us the most joy.

For me the choices of audio science closely mirrors my own preferences and tend to bring me the most audiophile joy. But this is not true for many people. The large number of tube lovers should be proof enough of that. Can audio science answer the question of why some people love audio equipment that is objectively inferior? No it can't because that question is outside the audio scientists area of expertise. My advice is always to consider audio specifications carefully but buy what brings you the most happiness because that is what the purchase decision is all about.
 
I agree but you seem to suggest that a member of a discipline can only learn from members of the same discipline. I am suggesting that cross discipline learning is helpful especially when the question science trying to answer crosses over into the science of personal preference.

You can't stop at specifications and call it a day. Audiophiles want equipment that brings them joy. That is the ultimate goal, joy Not specifications. Science can try to determine what specifications may do that and are successful to a degree but ultimately there are many more factors involved unrelated to the physical science of specifications that determine what gear we love the most. These factors are outside the expertise of audio science and are personal and unique to the individual. That's why the physical sciences can tell us what gear is the most accurate but not what gear would bring us the most joy.

For me the choices of audio science closely mirrors my own preferences and tend to bring me the most audiophile joy. But this is not true for many people. The large number of tube lovers should be proof enough of that. Can audio science answer the question of why some people love audio equipment that is objectively inferior? No it can't because that question is outside the audio scientists area of expertise. My advice is always to consider audio specifications carefully but buy what brings you the most happiness because that is what the purchase decision is all about.
you seem to be confusing preference (which can be studied, as toole, olive, et al have done) and simply liking something. The latter is completely unreliable since--as we should all know very, very well by now--our hearing is completely overpowered by our sight, our preconceptions, our mood at the time, and other factors that have literally nothing to do with audio.
The only way to know what you actually like listening to is to do the difficult work of isolating your hearing from your preconceptions and other senses. Otherwise, like most (all?) subjectivist audiophiles, you are on the treadmill of confusion, loving your gear until you don't, then swapping gear in and out ad nauseam. For some people that is the point, and I don't begrudge them that if they acknowledge it for what it is, but if the goal is reliably great sounding equipment, it's a red goose chase whose sole beneficiaries are hi-fi dealers and manufacturers.
 
you seem to be confusing preference (which can be studied, as toole, olive, et al have done) and simply liking something. The latter is completely unreliable since--as we should all know very, very well by now--our hearing is completely overpowered by our sight, our preconceptions, our mood at the time, and other factors that have literally nothing to do with audio.
The only way to know what you actually like listening to is to do the difficult work of isolating your hearing from your preconceptions and other senses. Otherwise, like most (all?) subjectivist audiophiles, you are on the treadmill of confusion, loving your gear until you don't, then swapping gear in and out ad nauseam. For some people that is the point, and I don't begrudge them that if they acknowledge it for what it is, but if the goal is reliably great sounding equipment, it's a red goose chase whose sole beneficiaries are hi-fi dealers and manufacturers.
I have my CJ tube gear from the 90's and early 2000's and still love it, would never think about getting rid of it because supposed science says that it is inferior. If think that most tube lovers think the same way as I do. I can't stand clinical boring audio sound or for that matter clinical boring photographs taken with clinical perfect lens. But each to their own, the main objective is to enjoy the music one is listening to let the scientists spend all day measuring and going after the nirvana of perfect sound. In the future AI will tell us what components to buy for perfect sound, who will believe it ??
 
Reply to RexrothPigeon

Here we go again trying to stereotype audiophiles to fit your agenda. I am not on a treadmill. I generally keep my gear for 10 to 20 years or more because i know what i like. Your proposition that if an audiophile loves gear that does not test well that love will be short lived is without any evidence what so ever. Do you have any scientific data to support that or are you just making things up? I think your making it up. Do you even have any education or training in the area of consumer product satisfaction that would allow you to offer an expert opinion on this? I doubt it. So I'm suppose to believe you that an audiophile that loves an inferior piece of equipment doesn't really love it? That their feelings are false? That their feelings of joy are not real because they should not feel that way. Give me a break.

I have been a Magnepan lover for 40 years. These speakers do not test objectively well. I just bought my third set and love them more today then ever so your comments are empirically false as to me and without any evidence as to others. I think it is clear that you are outside of you lane. Keep this up and you will be pulled over for a DUI.

Audio science can tell me what piece equipment of will pass the most true signal, that is why i am here, but it can never tell me what equipment purchase will give me the most joy and pleasure to own because the factors that determine joy and pleasure in ownership include additional elements that are not reflected by specifications such as looks, feel, respect for the company, quality of construction and so on. Is this even controversial here at ASR?
 
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I can't stand clinical boring audio sound
maybe listen to music that isn't boring or clinical? I mean, I like the beautiful colors of a sunset but I don't want to wear pink and gold lenses 24/7.
 
Reply to RexrothPigeon

Here we go again trying to stereotype audiophiles to fit your agenda. I am not on a treadmill. I generally keep my gear for 10 to 20 years or more because i know what i like. Your proposition that if an audiophile loves gear that does not test well that love will be short lived is without any evidence what so ever. Do you have any scientific data to support that or are you just making things up? I think your making it up. Do you even have any education or training in the area of consumer product satisfaction that would allow you to offer an expert opinion on this? I doubt it. So I'm suppose to believe you that an audiophile that loves an inferior piece of equipment doesn't really love it? That their feelings are false? That their feelings of joy are not real because they should not feel that way. Give me a break.

I have been a Magnepan lover for 40 years. These speakers do not test objectively well. I just bought my third set and love them more today then ever so your comments are empirically false as to me and without any evidence as to others. I think it is clear that you are outside of you lane. Keep this up and you will be pulled over for a DUI.
Congrats on having gear you love! that's an important thing. But for a person who claims my words don't apply to them, you seem awfully defensive. Anyway, there are plenty of exceptions to the audiophile treadmill of confusion, but it exists, and the industry wants it to continue. ASR offers a rare and special hand to those wishing to step off it. If that's not you, great!

Let's be clear, though, that people who love their non-performant equipment may love it for a lot of different reasons, and it's very possible they have little to do with sound. I love lots of things I own that aren't really that great--I like how they look, I like how they feel, I like the value proposition, I don't want to shop, I have sentimental attachment, etc. Nothing wrong with that until I start claiming it's as good as or better than superior things, or I reject the validity of measurable superiority in the first place, at which point I'm in the realm of religion on an audio science website :)
 
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