Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Timcognito]

I don't have any measurement equipment to make the 'test . How does the user actually make these tests ?

One reads reviews with data and savvy advice by pros and hobbiests before buying, otherwise buyer beware. Most here would do that before purchasing. If one didn't, then if you are happy, you are happy and should stay away from sites like this, especially if you are going tout obvious non measurement methodology, as most everyone would do listening test. Otherwise, there are free software packages like REW, microphones around $100 and plenty of how to threads on ASR. Amir has purchased a very expensive Klippel Near Field Scanner and has tested many speakers and that is a shortcut for us.

 

[mpw]

No measurement, just listen to what you think has differences when you know what is playing without knowing what is playing.
Cannot be more simple.

Yes, but I thought we were not supposed to trust our ears just rely on measurements, and don't read reviews from Hi-End mags. as they are corrupt and dishonest people !!

 

[kyuu]

Yes, but I thought we were not supposed to trust our ears just rely on measurements

Trusting your ears is fine, but that can only happen in a properly controlled double-blind test. When you are listening without those controls, you are not trusting your ears. You are trusting the entirety of your perception systems, which includes a lot of things that have nothing to do with the actual stimulus hitting your ear drums.

Again, please familiarize yourself with the science. It's a much more productive use of your time. A great place to start is by reading Sound Reproduction by Dr. Floyd Toole.

 

[BookshelfBob]

Yes, but I thought we were not supposed to trust our ears just rely on measurements, and don't read reviews from Hi-End mags. as they are corrupt and dishonest people !!

I get that pre-internet. You were at the mercy of these publications.

But it's 2026. I would not trust anyone in this industry without measurements. Not because I think it's not possible to hear differences. I'm not sure, i've never done blind tests to see what I can hear. But without measurements it's so obviously flawed.

You cycle 7 figures worth of gear through your shop a year. But can't spend 50k to get some measurements on that gear and post it along side your thoughts?

Come on now. Like I find that Steve Guttenberg guy very amiable. But I'm 99.9999999% sure he never shares his true thoughts on anything. I don't think he's corrupt. Just too nice. The measurements wouldn't let makers slide

 

[mpw]

I get that pre-internet. You were at the mercy of these publications.

But it's 2026. I would not trust anyone in this industry without measurements. Not because I think it's not possible to hear differences. I'm not sure, i've never done blind tests to see what I can hear. But without measurements it's so obviously flawed.

You cycle 7 figures worth of gear through your shop a year. But can't spend 50k to get some measurements on that gear and post it along side your thoughts?

Come on now. Like I find that Steve Guttenberg guy very amiable. But I'm 99.9999999% sure he never shares his true thoughts on anything. I don't think he's corrupt. Just too nice. The measurements wouldn't let makers slide

My my main system is about 5k bought everything in that system used. Not that many people own 7 figure systems and if they do they can afford to make mistakes ! I like Steve G. as well the only problem is that he never plays any music just talks ! Who else on YT do like that reviews 2ch. components that is worth watching ? I like listening to Fremers "Record du jour", he recently played 3 different versions of "whole Lotta Love" .

 

[BookshelfBob]

My my main system is about 5k bought everything in that system used. Not that many people own 7 figure systems and if they do they can afford to make mistakes ! I like Steve G. as well the only problem is that he never plays any music just talks ! Who else on YT do like that reviews 2ch. components that is worth watching ? I like listening to Fremers "Record du jour", he recently played 3 different versions of "whole Lotta Love" .

Are we talking about you or Hi Fi magazines....? The Hi Fi magazines should have measurements?

I like "cheap audio man". He seems to have decent ears and most importantly seems to tell the truth. But youtube just gives me them sometimes and I click. I would go with measurements and a forum like this now that I'm aware.

 

[mpw]

Are we talking about you or Hi Fi magazines....? The Hi Fi magazines should have measurements?

I like "cheap audio man". He seems to have decent ears and most importantly seems to tell the truth. But youtube just gives me them sometimes and I click. I would go with measurements and a forum like this now that I'm aware.

I am talking about Hi-Fi mags not me. I have not seen any worthwhile channels on YT that reviews audio components.

 

[rjp]

It is not possible to prove a negative. I refer you again to my post above.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-everything-or-nothing.62954/post-2646342


When you are speculating that the long established measurements are insufficient, - when there is decades of evidence that they show what is audible, and what is not - then it is up to you to provide evidence in support of your hypotheses. Not to expect others to provide proof that your speculation is invalid.

Sorry but that's just plain silly. Sounds like you are just spouting what you heard from the pulpit without having understood what it really means. The tests we do here are very valuable, but if you don't understand what they truly mean technically and what their limitations are, you wont be able to defend them when someone questions why a certain thing is as it is as.

 

[antcollinet]

but if you don't understand what they truly mean technically

Thirty five year career as electronic engineer behind me. I understand what they mean technically. More to the point I understand where the burden of proof lies and it is not with the ones trying to educate you here.

So, again - if you want to "question why a certain thing is as it is" - you need to provide some sort of scientific or engineering basis for that question. So what are you bringing? What new nugget of knowledge have have you found that 150 years of scientists and engineers have missed? Or is it just "well I don't believe it"

Perhaps start with your own hearing. You could do a blind test between two dacs that measure well, and prove you can hear a difference. Or perhaps test your own hearing, simply and easily online, and show you can detect distortion down at -100dB or lower which is where even only an average performing DAC's imperfections lie.

Otherwise you are just asserting that there is a teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between the orbits of the earth and mars.


Either way it is time to stop wasting our time with endless speculation. I for one have concluded you, and/or @mpw are deliberately sea-lioning now. I'll not respond further.

 

[Svend P]

I am talking about Hi-Fi mags not me. I have not seen any worthwhile channels on YT that reviews audio components.

There is Erin and ASR

https://www.youtube.com/@ErinsAudioCorner

https://www.youtube.com/@AudioScienceReview

 

[stuartkohl]

Either way it is time to stop wasting our time with endless speculation. I for one have concluded you, and/or @mpw are deliberately sea-lioning now. I'll not respond further.

Thank you for pointing out "sea-lioning." I had never heard that term before, but it certainly fits. I had been thinking that they were trolling and was about done trying to talk to them, but yes, I think you're exactly right - sea-lioners.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Either way it is time to stop wasting our time with endless speculation. I for one have concluded you, and/or @mpw are deliberately sea-lioning now. I'll not respond further.

This is where I stand as well on those 2, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

 

[rjp]

Either way it is time to stop wasting our time with endless speculation. I for one have concluded you, and/or @mpw are deliberately sea-lioning now. I'll not respond further.

I'm not sure what sea-lioning is, but yeah, I am definitely just poking at you for fun and debate my friend. I get the impression from Page 1 that Amir created this thread specifically for this purpose, to keep all this arguing over the same old questions out of the other threads and put it all in one place where those that wish to participate can do so. Well, do so they must, because it's grown to 869 pages!

Since we are trading credentials, I too have over 30 years in the signal processing field, 7 patents, and a PhD in EE. Yes, I too know what I'm talking about, and am not just some anti-measurement nay-sayer. I guess that's why we both feel so passionate on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to discuss. Be well.

 

[NTK]

I'm not sure what sea-lioning is, but yeah, I am definitely just poking at you for fun and debate my friend. I get the impression from Page 1 that Amir created this thread specifically for this purpose, to keep all this arguing over the same old questions out of the other threads and put it all in one place where those that wish to participate can do so. Well, do so they must, because it's grown to 869 pages!

Since we are trading credentials, I too have over 30 years in the signal processing field, 7 patents, and a PhD in EE. Yes, I too know what I'm talking about, and am not just some anti-measurement nay-sayer. I guess that's why we both feel so passionate on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to discuss. Be well.

Seriously? You have a PhD in EE and those are the best arguments you can muster? How about a concrete counter-example that can withstand scrutiny?

 

[rjp]

Seriously? You have a PhD in EE and those are the best arguments you can muster? How about a concrete counter-example that can withstand scrutiny?

Yes, seriously, since back in 1992, and I have spent my entire career in signal processing. To my mind I feel my argument is already solid and logical, and the opposing view is unsubstantiated. As such, I cannot figure out a counter argument against something that is not logically sound. I try every once in a while when the urge for improved clarity strikes.

One reason this topic interests me is that I believe the case for measurements-only really is defensible, and could potentially be rigorously supported without all this back and forth bickering. I am always hoping that one day this will happen. So I kick the hornets nest to move it along

 

[pkane]

This support strengthens the assertion significantly, but it is not strictly proof. (Yes, I agree it's probably good enough, but this is the place for intellectual debate, right?)

By contrast, sometimes it is possible to prove an assertion more rigorously, even in "subjective" audio.

The sampling theorem is a mathematical construct with a mathematical proof. Nothing subjective about it as it's independent of any listener. Anything having to do with audibility, perception, and interpretation of audio are all subjective as they are all produced by the "wetware" of the individual listener, which at this point can't be modeled mathematically.

So back at you. Can you show any proof that our standard measurement set is capable of detecting all audible differences?

So yes, @antcollinet is right: when using statistical methods there is no way to "prove" a negative, since the superset of all possible audible differences across all possible listeners past, living or future, can't be enumerated.

 

[mpw]

Thank you for pointing out "sea-lioning." I had never heard that term before, but it certainly fits. I had been thinking that they were trolling and was about done trying to talk to them, but yes, I think you're exactly right - sea-lioners.

we are 'sea-lioning' because we bring up counter arguments towards measurements as the ultimate resource in choosing components ? You guys are really funny !

 

[stuartkohl]

we are 'sea-lioning' because we bring up counter arguments towards measurements as the ultimate resource in choosing components ? You guys are really funny !

Counter arguments? They seem like deflections to me, and they look a lot like things I've seen before. (I survived rec.audio.high-end)

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. If so, I apologize. However, I don't think that continuing to discuss your counter arguments will be fruitful, so I decline to participate beyond this point.

 

[prerich]

I get that pre-internet. You were at the mercy of these publications.

But it's 2026. I would not trust anyone in this industry without measurements. Not because I think it's not possible to hear differences. I'm not sure, i've never done blind tests to see what I can hear. But without measurements it's so obviously flawed.

You cycle 7 figures worth of gear through your shop a year. But can't spend 50k to get some measurements on that gear and post it along side your thoughts?

Come on now. Like I find that Steve Guttenberg guy very amiable. But I'm 99.9999999% sure he never shares his true thoughts on anything. I don't think he's corrupt. Just too nice. The measurements wouldn't let makers slide

Steve Guttenberg trashed the Infinity Prelude MTS, couldn't see how reviewers loved them. Measurements loved them, even Michael Femmer loved them, Dr Toole owned them before his Revel Salons. Steve is not scientific - but he will say what he feels about a product. I've seen him be very unkind to products indeed.

 

[BookshelfBob]

Steve Guttenberg trashed the Infinity Prelude MTS, couldn't see how reviewers loved them. Measurements loved them, even Michael Femmer loved them, Dr Toole owned them before his Revel Salons. Steve is not scientific - but he will say what he feels about a product. I've seen him be very unkind to products indeed.

Huh that's interesting. Everything i've seen from him he was very vague and just like "yeah buy it sure"

Maybe he's only willing to be mean if they've pissed him off hahahaha

I'm not an expert on his work.