Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Timcognito]

Any musicality comes from the composition, musicianship/voice, interplay of players and recording quality. Speakers can only playback what is there with accuracy, dispersion and dynamic range and room can dramatically change all those qualities. Both speaker and speaker+room can be measured with a microphone that will reveal any idiosyncrasies. Pretty simple really. Fixing a poor measuring speaker not so much.

 

[mpw]

What is "musicality?"

On second thought, I don't want to know.

Musicality is sound that is music to ones Ears. a chain saw is not music, a power blower is not music, etc.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Musicality is sound that is music to ones Ears. a chain saw is not music, a power blower is not music, etc.

Not a harsh noise fan I guess.

 

[antcollinet]

Musicality is sound that is music to ones Ears. a chain saw is not music, a power blower is not music, etc.

Exactly - it is a property of the music - not of the reproduction gear. Unless the reproduction gear manages to change a violin into a chain saw, which would be quite some massive level of distortion.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Praise your friend for those Bose 301s that he enjoys and is proud of! Or... you could try to educate him about why his speakers are just so wrong..

The praising or the educate is both inadequate from my perspective.
If the "friend" is enjoying listening to music regularly, in an attentive manner, then that is all that matter. Their is nothing intrinsic wrong in his Bose 301s that will prevent him or anyone else to enjoy listening to music on those speakers.
Speakers, as opposed to electronics, where we know and have known for a very long time, what works or does not work and can back it up with simple measurements, are not so easy to characterize, if only but not only, because they have to interplay with a room that is even more difficult to get meaningful measurements from.
At the end we get something compromised and have to make choices that align with our preferences. Having a dedicated room where one can set the speakers and the listening position to allow our preferred experience, is a huge advantage, but is not a guarantee of success either. Success is a very general concept, as we may not be after the same kind of success. to me success is when the music is engaging, hearing/feeling the emotion it is supposed to carry. For other success is a flat sound or a deep soundstage or deep bass. every body is chasing a different target. Until the perfect speaker comes to market, we all have to live with a compromise that meets our goal and let us enjoy listening to music.
If that friend is referring to a specific issue he would like to fix and we think the issue it directly cause by his speakers, after we heard it for our self, then it might be the time to guide him into trying a different speaker that might fix the specific issue in his set up, that this friend is complaining about.
@CurtR this post is not specifically directed at your post, I just quoted your comment for context, I am just expressing my Opinion as it relates to excessively relying on speaker measurements as we would to electronic measurement, when speaker measurement and what we hear where they are playing, at this point in time, are extremely subject to interpretations that may or may not match with what we are aiming at as individual in the comfort of our home.
If you like what you hear, you are golden, don't worry and enjoy the music.

 

[uliwer]

Do people read this Forum to be praised for what they have, or do they look for rational information about what they might get?

 

[mpw]

Do people read this Forum to be praised for what they have, or do they look for rational information about what they might get?

I think both ! As long as sound good to user thats all that counts.

 

[stuartkohl]

Do people read this Forum to be praised for what they have, or do they look for rational information about what they might get?

I'm sure there are people here for both of these things. For myself, I prefer science-based information. Not only has the info on ASR given me some ideas for future purchases, but I've also learned a lot from people here in general.

 

[mpw]

I'm sure there are people here for both of these things. For myself, I prefer science-based information. Not only has the info on ASR given me some ideas for future purchases, but I've also learned a lot from people here in general.

What % has the ASR science reviews been correct with your purchases and are you still pleased with the purchase ?

 

[stuartkohl]

I think both ! As long as sound good to user thats all that counts.

"Sounds good" is a rather broad and somewhat meaningless category. Distortion "sounds good" to some people.

For electronics, I feel that "measures well" is a prerequisite. From there I can decide based on other factors like feature set, looks, reputation, price, and so on.

 

[stuartkohl]

What % has the ASR science reviews been correct with your purchases and are you still pleased with the purchase ?

So far 100% "correct" and I am still very pleased with my purchases.

Reviews on ASR let me know what products are competent. That's a lot better than reviews in the magazines where the reviewer writes 10 pages of fiction about how flavorful a DAC was and how it "blows away everything else I've ever used." "Night and day!"

 

[SSS]

Do people read this Forum to be praised for what they have, or do they look for rational information about what they might get?

Reading this forum is to be updated with technical developments. And I try to contribute at technical questions. Purchasing equipment I have my own standards in determining the price/quality ratio, Of course information in this forum can help to see that some gear is not worth the price. The so called hi-end market is in my opinion anyway totally overpriced and I do not buy anything when it is.

 

[Middle Earth]

I find R2R DACs that don’t measure great to have and wider an deeper sound stage is that just psycho acoustics and am I just wasting money on my LAiV Crescendo Verse R2R DAC as I prefer it to my Topping D90 1 bit Discrete and find the Crescendo to have a better sound stage. I am open minded to mere bias confirmation. These two DACs were comparable in price.

 

[solderdude]

R2R DACs (oversampling) and DS DACS output the exact same signal and differ only a little in the smallest signals (the one's arguably below hearing thresholds when listening to music).
When using R2R in NOS mode with 44.1 or 48kHz (or DS DACs with simulated 'NOS' filters) you can find reduced signal fidelity but as with the reduced signal fidelity of vinyl too.. some people seem to like/prefer it.

Soundstage is a brain thingy that recreates it based on 2 signals reaching the ears and is highly 'bias sensitive'.

 

[Middle Earth]

R2R DACs (oversampling) and DS DACS output the exact same signal and differ only a little in the smallest signals (the one's arguably below hearing thresholds when listening to music).
When using R2R in NOS mode with 44.1 or 48kHz (or DS DACs with simulated 'NOS' filters) you can find reduced signal fidelity but as with the reduced signal fidelity of vinyl too.. some people seem to like/prefer it.

Soundstage is a brain thingy that recreates it based on 2 signals reaching the ears and is highly 'bias sensitive'.

I appreciate your response and your signature is spot on

 

[kemmler3D]

"Sounds good" is a rather broad and somewhat meaningless category. Distortion "sounds good" to some people.

In fact a little distortion on certain things sounds good to most people. "Tube warmer" style effects are ubiquitous in the studio. Rarely do you hear guitar or pop vocals with zero distortion added in the studio.

IMO distortion is like salt. A lot of food/music doesn't taste/sound good without it. Too much is terrible. And if the dish / music is prepared by a professional you probably don't need to add any yourself.

For electronics, I feel that "measures well" is a prerequisite. From there I can decide based on other factors like feature set, looks, reputation, price, and so on.

Agree.

 

[reforminded]

Do people read this Forum to be praised for what they have, or do they look for rational information about what they might get?

I only read this forum so I can get information to use to humiliate people in the reddit audiophile sub.

 

[antcollinet]

I only read this forum so I can get information to use to humiliate people in the reddit audiophile sub.

How's that workin' out for ya?

 

[CurtR]

searched for this quote and the only time it appears on this forum is in your post above.

it's possible that exact quote is not exact, but it certainly was implied, and not just in the one place alone... it's all over the place here, in this forum.

That said, here I am, learning what I can and sharing what I observe.

Very little is all or nothing, black and white, in speakers or in life. In the audiophile world, speakers live in the grey... measurements are of course helpful for selection and are educational when it comes to placement strategy and sub integration in the home, but measurements have to be used in a measured manner as a general overview but certainly not a final conclusion... and when you live with them in that grey, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and in my considered opinion it comes down to the motto of Human Speakers of Epi legacy fame: "Music to your ears."

Thank you everybody for your opinions and observations.

 

[Mart68]

it's possible that exact quote is not exact, but it certainly was implied, and not just in the one place alone... it's all over the place here, in this forum.

That said, here I am, learning what I can and sharing what I observe.

Very little is all or nothing, black and white, in speakers or in life. In the audiophile world, speakers live in the grey... measurements are of course helpful for selection and are educational when it comes to placement strategy and sub integration in the home, but measurements have to be used in a measured manner as a general overview but certainly not a final conclusion... and when you live with them in that grey, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and in my considered opinion it comes down to the motto of Human Speakers of Epi legacy fame: "Music to your ears."

Thank you everybody for your opinions and observations.

I don't disagree with you that speakers are a grey area for preference, to an extent.