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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

I clarified my first question, it should have been There's something they measured but failed to take into account (i.e..measured, but ignored/missed) ?

One wonders why he hangs around a place so at odds with his audio beliefs. Maybe the same reason I subscribe to the Wall Street Journal -- KYE (know your enemy)?
 
I clarified my first question, it should have been There's something they measured but failed to take into account (i.e..measured, but ignored/missed) ?

One wonders why he hangs around a place so at odds with his audio beliefs. Maybe the same reason I subscribe to the Wall Street Journal -- KYE (know your enemy)?
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you don't go out of your way to troll the WSJ staff and subscribers. ;)
 
The even harmonics fall on octaves. The odd harmonics can be off relative to the piano scale (twelve root of 2 spacing). The third harmonic is -1.6 cent, the 5th harmonic is +13 cents, the 7th is +30 cent, the 9th is -4 cent…
To be clear, the harmonics are the "in tune" ones (well, minus the harmonic 7th), 12TET is intentionally a little bit out of tune so it works the same in every key.
 
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electric guitarists know it :)
I like your comment but:

Electric guitar sound is used for lead sound, mostly single note melody. The non linearity makes a single string note generates a lot of fundamental and harmonic distortions. There is no inter-modulation distortions (not harmonic, very unmusical).

But play two notes or a chord, and the non harmonic stuff comes up. People associate it as part of the electric guitar sound, a “harsh” sound. It would happen with acoustic guitar passed through electric guitar amp, but it “does not belong” to classical guitar music.

So each electric guitar player brings their own amp. There is no sharing.

And the person listening at home with tube amp listens to music with more than one note at a time.

I think that guitar amp designers allow a lot more distortions relative to a class A tube for home listening.
 
lol whut? Virtually every rock band since decade upon decade has had a rhythm guitarist. Playing electric. Playing chords.
I am not sugesting that people should not play electric guitar chords, or anything else.
I am pointing out the sound of intermodulation when playing multiple notes. It does sound harsh, and is accepted as part of music, certainly hard rock and more.
It is never easy to describe sound with words, I think you can hear what I said about it when listening to loud sustain chord.
I can't explain it any better without math or graphs...
 
I am not sugesting that people should not play electric guitar chords, or anything else.
I am pointing out the sound of intermodulation when playing multiple notes. It does sound harsh, and is accepted as part of music, certainly hard rock and more.
It is never easy to describe sound with words, I think you can hear what I said about it when listening to loud sustain chord.
I can't explain it any better without math or graphs...
ok but that doesn't have much to do with what I was saying (which was pretty straightforward: electric guitarists know that tube sound doesn't really happen until you crank the volume)
 
I am not sugesting that people should not play electric guitar chords, or anything else.
I am pointing out the sound of intermodulation when playing multiple notes. It does sound harsh, and is accepted as part of music, certainly hard rock and more.
It is never easy to describe sound with words, I think you can hear what I said about it when listening to loud sustain chord.
I can't explain it any better without math or graphs...
I will try to do better:
Here is some simple math (trigonometry) to explain the inter-modulation issue as simply as I can.

Let’s start by creating the nirvana and haven for lovers of second order distortions. It will be preforming an operation on the signal x with the outcome y= x^2.

A single sine wave square y = sin(k*f)^2 = ½+sin(k*2*f). remove the ½ (DC) and there is a ½(k*2*f), second harmonic at 6dB below the fundamental. There is no fundamental, only second harmonic.

Add 2 sine waves and square (y = [ sin(a) + sin(b) ]^2, the result is

Y = 2*sin[ (a+b) /2)] *sin[ (a-b) /2)]. The (a+b)/2 is a tone at the average of the frequencies. But that tone is not at constant amplitude, it is modulated by the slower(a-b)/2, modulation at a rate of at half the frequency difference.

Say I play A3 220Hz and C5 523.251. The outcome would be a tone at 371.55Hz (between F sharp and G4). That tone will be amplitude modulated by 151.626Hz (slightly above D4). A total mess with just two tones.

Of course the example was extreme. The more linear the transfer curve the less distortions, both harmonic and non harmonics. For electric guitar music, increasing the loudness comes with adding harmonics, changing the sound. But playing chords (especially loud) does sound harsh. It is “part of the sound”. It is what happens when you feed non linear device with multiple tones. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

I am not saying it should be avoided, it is part of music. It is great for hard rock and more, not so much for classical music or a lullaby.
 
yes, I'm just not sure why you are telling me these things. they are orthogonal to my point (which was very simple and made no specific claims about what happens when tube amps are played at high volume or with single notes or chords or feedback or e-bows or trained live hamsters)
 
yes, I'm just not sure why you are telling me these things. they are orthogonal to my point (which was very simple and made no specific claims about what happens when tube amps are played at high volume or with single notes or chords or feedback or e-bows or trained live hamsters)
I guess we are not communicating well. People can use a lot of gear (hardware and software) to alter sound. That would include electric guitars and much more. My point is that conversion should be linear and accurate, it is done to take advantage of the digital world, not to alter sound.
 
I guess we are not communicating well. People can use a lot of gear (hardware and software) to alter sound. That would include electric guitars and much more. My point is that conversion should be linear and accurate, it is done to take advantage of the digital world, not to alter sound.
Well yes, of course. I use very linear and accurate equipment for sound reproduction (Dutch & Dutch 8C active speakers & a couple AES cables, nothing more). Still not sure why you'd reply with that point to my very unobjectionable post, maybe you assumed that I was saying something like, "because electric guitarists like tube distortion, home hi-fi equipment should too"? Anyway, I definitely wasn't saying that, and if I'd wanted to say that, I would have just said it :)
 
Well yes, of course. I use very linear and accurate equipment for sound reproduction (Dutch & Dutch 8C active speakers & a couple AES cables, nothing more). Still not sure why you'd reply with that point to my very unobjectionable post, maybe you assumed that I was saying something like, "because electric guitarists like tube distortion, home hi-fi equipment should too"? Anyway, I definitely wasn't saying that, and if I'd wanted to say that, I would have just said it :)
I must have missed what you said. Sorry. What was your point (if you care to repeat), or to point at the post number. Or we can agree that we are talking about different things...
 
I must have missed what you said. Sorry. What was your point (if you care to repeat), or to point at the post number. Or we can agree that we are talking about different things...
sure, here's my post:
and your reply, quoting it:
 
sure, here's my post:
and your reply, quoting it:
OK. I think I posted somthing at the middle of some discussion.
I am a converter designer (for 50 years) so I started talking about conversion.
Sorry for the confusion. I am not a part of your discussion. Still don't know what it was about, it is just fine for me to leave it.
 
Your comment about the 7th harmonic is right on target.

The even harmonics fall on octaves. The odd harmonics can be off relative to the piano scale (twelve root of 2 spacing). The third harmonic is -1.6 cent, the 5th harmonic is +13 cents, the 7th is +30 cent, the 9th is -4 cent…

I would think the 5th is bad enough, but the 7th wins the distortion race. You play A2 (110Hz) and the 7th fall on 770Hz but the piano closest note is 783.991Hz, almost 14Hz off (while the next note is only 46.7Hz higher).

Funny thing, about tubes: a non linear “curved” transfer function (say power amplifier) becomes more linear when using a smaller portion of that curve. In other words, you get more distortions (tube sound) at higher volumes (large signal peaks and deeps use more of the curve).

Reducing the volume way down will remove much distortion (tube sound). I wonder how many audiophiles know that simple fact.
Pianos are intentionally tuned to provide even spacing, but not even that, really. They are also tuned to spread the octaves, so that the right end of the keyboard is significantly sharper than the left end. And the strings themselves, as they interact with the soundboard, have rather complex overtones that cause a lot of intentional enharmonic blending to cover over the errors of equal temperament.

Musicians playing in ensembles do not try for equal temperament at all, unless they are compelled (in that moment) to be in tune with a mallet or keyboard instrument that is so tuned. When playing together, they will play with just intonation, which tunes the chords for maximum resonance. This requires them to play the same note with different tuning in different key and chord contexts, but that's the gig. Ancient wind instruments that lacked valves or tone holes were limited to the harmonic series of the instrument. They either avoided the overtones that were most out of tune, or found ways to use the effect musically. (Or they played solo, so that it wouldn't clash with other instruments.) Vaughan Williams actually used this when he asked the trumpets emulate a bugle call in his third symphony. The trumpets are specifically asked to play a seventh harmonic on the open instrument (rather than the usual first valve) so that it would play flat as it does on a bugle.

All of this intentionality can be screwed up by distortion products that rise to the level of audible, either singly or in combination. Even the so-called musical even-order harmonic distortion might drift away from a piano with its stretched octaves and undermine its resonance. There are plenty of places in the recording and distribution process where those distortions can sneak in, but as for me I don't want my playback system to add more.

Of course, very low distortion tube amps are entirely possible with good design and implementation, so this is less about tubes and more about bad tubes or inadequate tube-based circuits.

Another possible effect, though, is in the shape of a clipped waveform, which may differ more significantly between different designs and technologies. When an amp is clipped (and I think a lot of smaller amps are driven to clipping on peaks much more often than their owners realize), those clipping behaviors may also be part of the mix. A hard, square-wave clip is going to add a spike of odd-order harmonics to that peak, giving it a click that it would not have if the wave could be fully formed.

Rick "has a textbook on tuning that is three inches thick providing shelf ballast downstairs" Denney
 
Related story: The Conn Strobo-Scope was developed to compare tuning techniques, the whole concept rdenny (and thanks for that!) was laying out. Whether to tune them equally or sharpen the treble end. The apparatus was developed in a Central Illinois university’s physics department and they did a bunch of abx testing around it. I can’t speak in detail about it but perhaps it’s mentioned in your tome. After the study concluded the technology was commercialized by Conn, who may have funded the project.
 
Related story: The Conn Strobo-Scope was developed to compare tuning techniques, the whole concept rdenny (and thanks for that!) was laying out. Whether to tune them equally or sharpen the treble end. The apparatus was developed in a Central Illinois university’s physics department and they did a bunch of abx testing around it. I can’t speak in detail about it but perhaps it’s mentioned in your tome. After the study concluded the technology was commercialized by Conn, who may have funded the project.
There were several versions of the Stroboscope. One had a range of strobe wheels that would show harmonics of the sound, but the usual one had a single wheel with multiple rings showing different harmonics. It was easy to see how to tune a note to make different resonance structures.

Of course, I have one :)

Rick "but it uses vacuum tubes and needs some careful time on the bench" Denney
 
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