Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Mort]

I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.

The entire Internet is there for this. Here we have higher standards.

 

[Sal1950]

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.

Science needs to be applied to any reported subjective observations.
We fully understand human nature and it matters little how many repeat "I heard it, I hear it too, me too, me too; unless done under bias controlled blind listening. Sighted reports are basically valueless.

 

[janbth]

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.
My initial point was not rebutting established facts, that are backed by years and years of data and research. I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.
Because there is a lot to be learned here and it would be a tragedy to gate keep this knowledge by some overly zealous users.

Who are «they»? Can you please post a link to where «he» is ridiculed? I ask because I think it is useful to be specific.

 

[Jaxx1138]

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.
My initial point was not rebutting established facts, that are backed by years and years of data and research. I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.
Because there is a lot to be learned here and it would be a tragedy to gate keep this knowledge by some overly zealous users.

I understand your point of view. But it is highly unlikely you will receive any sympathy in ASR. I myself received quite a stern dressing down when I first arrived. That is after being an acoustic engineer and working in the industry for quite a while. But running the gauntlet in here and expecting moral support is misguided, even when it is well intentioned. Unlike other audio-enthusiast web sites, many of the people in here are highly competent and credentialed experts in their fields. Correction about a misunderstood topic often is taken as harsh criticism. Having worked with and gone to school with this type, they usually don't mean it that way, they are simply stating a fact. It can feel brutal, but some of these guys are nearly Autistic in their interpersonal skills. They mean no harm. Even when they become frustrated with your inexperience or lack of knowledge in the area of audio reproduction. They are simply correcting a mistake. They are correct concerning looking up information, with the internet and free AI tools, there is little reason for not checking the facts behind a particular claim. Learning is not always easy. Don't take it personally(difficult for most of us). This site is a very valuable tool for learning and getting to speak with some of true experts in the field of sound reproduction. Everybody has something to offer , somebody like you as well.

 

[Newman]

.... if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.
My initial point was not rebutting established facts, that are backed by years and years of data and research. I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.
Because there is a lot to be learned here and it would be a tragedy to gate keep this knowledge by some overly zealous users.

Your last sentence in particular I do support, but it is possible that you are erecting a straw man.

I don't think ASR immediately shouts at people who make comments that are almost certainly promoting what I will loosely call impossible subjectivism, where they draw unlikely objective conclusions about sound waves using a listening method that is completely invalid for drawing objective conclusions about sound waves.

I see them initially being given some information... about the necessary listening controls before they can claim that something is audibly in the sound waves; about the power of non-sonic cognitive biases within the listener to create impressions of sound waves that are unrelated to anything in the sound waves; about general human thresholds of hearing that can be safely assumed to apply to each listener until they provide rigorous evidence to the contrary.

It is when they reply to the above information with scorn, disbelief, name-calling, and further wild assertions and doubling down, that people on ASR smell a rat and say so in no uncertain terms.

cheers

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I have never claimed of either being wrong. Even though science is leaning towards an obvious direction.
If hes happy, why bother? If he believes he hears a difference, he might as well do . But what I saw here, time and time again, is inquisitorial accusations at best and outright ridicule at worst. Im speaking about certain people and definitely not about this whole forum or the administration.
And he should be allowed to state his opinion in a safe environment, without the fear of repercussions and pitchforks.
I have seldom seen a poster coming here and saying "My cable is better than yours!".
But I have seen, far too often, statements like "You are a fool. Get out!".
Maybe not worded like this but certainly with the same intention at heart.

Trying to get strangers on the internet to be nicer is a fool’s errand destined for failure

 

[Jaxx1138]

Trying to get strangers on the internet to be nicer is a fool’s errand destined for failure

Damnit! I am gonna have start my strategy all over again!

 

[antcollinet]

Trying to get strangers on the internet to be nicer is a fool’s errand destined for failure

True - but at least as regulars, lets not forget :

Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[voodooless]

True - but at least as regulars, lets not forget :

Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Maybe there should also be a thread for newcomer trolls with a “how to toll nicely” guide? Subtitle: “Learn the fine nuances of weaponizing vagueness and science denial”

 

[Jaxx1138]

Maybe there should also be a thread for newcomer trolls with a “how to toll nicely” guide? Subtitle: “Learn the fine nuances of weaponizing vagueness and science denial”

How to overcome the modern scientific method with advanced sophistry using the methods of Edward Bernays. (Tongue in cheek)

 

[Sernyl]

Maybe there should also be a thread for newcomer trolls with a “how to toll nicely” guide?

- Yes, and a header begining with Dante's "Leave all hope, you who enter" ...and are in search of other than scientific measurements, i.e. without any subjective bias you are not even aware of.

 

[Mart68]

Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule?

Pretty sure there are countless people using expensive cables who don't bother to come here and wax lyrical about them, they just get on with it.

What you should be asking is why some of them would feel the need to come to this forum and tell everyone how wrong they are? What's the motivation there?

I suppose when they do it should not descend into ridicule even so, but once the reality has been explained and they still persist where else is there to go?

Bear in mind it's very rare that they present any facts, evidence, or links to any studies, blind tests, or peer reviewed papers that would at least enable a discussion around the relevant science and engineering. It's just 'I trust my ears'. Which is childlike and gets tedious very quickly.

 

[xray]

What you should be asking is why some of them would feel the need to come to this forum and tell everyone how wrong they are? What's the motivation there?

I wonder that every time I read their posts. What outcome are they actually expecting? If they are 100% certain they are right and they are enjoying whatever it is they are raving about what more do they need? My theory is that they are not 100% certain and that bit of doubt it's bothering them. They will never admit to that however.

 

[Mart68]

I wonder that every time I read their posts. What outcome are they actually expecting? If they are 100% certain they are right and they are enjoying whatever it is they are raving about what more do they need? My theory is that they are not 100% certain and that bit of doubt it's bothering them. They will never admit to that however.

That's my take on it too but I suppose that does also cut both ways.

 

[TTT15]

What would be really interesting was if there was any scientific study about what people actually enjoyed because that is all that matters. Music reproduction may well be objective but enjoyment is subjective. If people are happy with what they have even if it makes no objective sense it doesn’t matter. Humans decide primarily emotionally. A decision to use a more engineering approach is an emotional decision given most people don’t care. Listening to music is ultimately a personal emotional experience.

 

[solderdude]

Isn't the Harman study mostly about preference ?

 

[voodooless]

What would be really interesting was if there was any scientific study about what people actually enjoyed because that is all that matters. Music reproduction may well be objective but enjoyment is subjective. If people are happy with what they have even if it makes no objective sense it doesn’t matter. Humans decide primarily emotionally. A decision to use a more engineering approach is an emotional decision given most people don’t care. Listening to music is ultimately a personal emotional experience.

 

[xray]

If people are happy with what they have even if it makes no objective sense it doesn’t matter.

I doubt many here would argue with that if those people ascribed that happiness to their personal experience only. The issue is when they ascribe that happiness to the component itself and think that everyone else should be equally happy with said component and ignore any contrary evidence.

 

[TTT15]

A lot of people with money are time poor so the money doesn’t matter. You can’t objectively justify any luxury good. No HiFi is necessary. The majority of people can’t afford or are not interested in hifi at all. But if people are happy with their luxury goods or with the popular Sonos / Apple Music experience that is fine just as it is fine if people want to take a very niche more objective approach. One approach over the other certainly doesn’t necessarily make someone a better or nicer or happier person

 

[Jaxx1138]

Isn't the Harman study mostly about preference ?

It is. But it is also validated by correlation to measurements statistically.