Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Sal1950]

There's no similar explanation for why 50wpc NAD amps could sound different to 50wpc Rotel or Yamaha be different from Naim or any other 'normal' design. But Stereophile et al will still describe their individual 'tone' or 'character' as though reviewing a piano or guitar.

That's how you sell a continual upgrade-ites to the audiophools and for the advertisers.

 

[Deleted member 97805]

Science also requires "observation". No scientist or engineer ever trusts the numbers and numbers alone blindly.
If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.
That is one of the key things that kept me away from this forum for a long time. A lot of people claim "scientific" approaches, yet fail at the very first steps in adhering those themselves.
Always be open and question yourself, if some bias did not creep up to your own "conclusion".

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Science also requires "observation". No scientist or engineer ever trusts the numbers and numbers alone blindly.
If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.
That is one of the key things that kept me away from this forum for a long time. A lot of people claim "scientific" approaches, yet fail at the very first steps in adhering those themselves.
Always be open and question yourself, if some bias did not creep up to your own "conclusion".

Observation has to eventually be backed up by reproducible data.

 

[Mort]

That is one of the key things that kept me away from this forum for a long time

What keeps you here?

 

[Jim Taylor]

If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.

Science doesn't dismiss observations ... it explains them. And sometimes the explanation is, "Your cognitive bias is deceiving you!"

At other times, it's simply lack of understanding. Centuries ago, people thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Why? Because everyone saw the same thing, and it was obvious. SO OBVIOUS!

Too bad to just wasn't so.

 

[Deleted member 97805]

Observation has to eventually be backed up by reproducible data.

True! Neither of those are mutually exclusive. You observe but also provide the data afterwards. What annoys me more is the attitude of some users here. They nonchalantly discard any opinion that does not correlate with theirs. People dont talk with each other like that in the real world.
If some "poor soul" is frantic about his new 500 USD Audioquest cable, just listen to what he has to say first. He might be wrong, he most definitely is wrong, but that does not make him an outright fool or liar.
A gentle approach teaches much better than a confrontational "holier than thou" attitude.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

True! Neither of those are mutually exclusive. You observe but also provide the data afterwards. What annoys me more is the attitude of some users here. They nonchalantly discard any opinion that does not correlate with theirs. People dont talk with each other like that in the real world.
If some "poor soul" is frantic about his new 500 USD Audioquest cable, just listen to what he has to say first. He might be wrong, he most definitely is wrong, but that does not make him an outright fool or liar.
A gentle approach teaches much better than a confrontational "holier than thou" attitude.

I understand where you are coming from and agree there is a right way to approach things.

But most of the time the dismissive frustration occurs because the person making a claim refuses to have an honest discussion based around why it is unlikely there is an actual audible difference. Usually because the moment anyway responds to someone saying "I heard a difference" that person feels they are being called a liar and then become defensive.

It almost never turns into a good faith discussion by the person making the claim(s).

 

[krabapple]

Science also requires "observation". No scientist or engineer ever trusts the numbers and numbers alone blindly.
If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.
That is one of the key things that kept me away from this forum for a long time. A lot of people claim "scientific" approaches, yet fail at the very first steps in adhering those themselves.
Always be open and question yourself, if some bias did not creep up to your own "conclusion".

Ah a new member with the same old non-point.

Science has observed that humans are very prone to cognitive biases.
This explains why, when 'enough people''s' claims are tested, under controlled conditions, the amazing differences they claim to hear, which appear to have no measurable basis, evaporate.

Simply put: when audio differences are real, science can detect them.

Claimants are always free , and indeed encouraged to, supply 'reproducible data'. Granted the data a 'reproduced' under conditions that prove what they claim.

 

[krabapple]

True! Neither of those are mutually exclusive. You observe but also provide the data afterwards. What annoys me more is the attitude of some users here. They nonchalantly discard any opinion that does not correlate with theirs. People dont talk with each other like that in the real world.
If some "poor soul" is frantic about his new 500 USD Audioquest cable, just listen to what he has to say first. He might be wrong, he most definitely is wrong, but that does not make him an outright fool or liar.

Though he might be either. Why is he 'frantic' about the cable?

More to the point, what claim is he making and what's his evidence?

You seem to think Mr. Frantic is using a scientific method : observe then explain. He's not.

But when we at ASR observe his data, and marshall known science -- 'priors', one might say -- to dismiss it, you think we're at fault.

 

[Babs776]

True! Neither of those are mutually exclusive. You observe but also provide the data afterwards. What annoys me more is the attitude of some users here. They nonchalantly discard any opinion that does not correlate with theirs. People dont talk with each other like that in the real world.
If some "poor soul" is frantic about his new 500 USD Audioquest cable, just listen to what he has to say first. He might be wrong, he most definitely is wrong, but that does not make him an outright fool or liar.
A gentle approach teaches much better than a confrontational "holier than thou" attitude.

There’s information and there’s misinformation. Audio is a subjective hobby governed by science and objective metrics. There are absolutes as to audibility in human hearing and those are known measurable quantities.

Because audio is based in consumerism and the learning curve for it is high, the subjective nature and lack of regulations on what audio companies can and can’t say a product does, the vast majority of what a person encounters as information about audio is misinformation or subjective interpretation. Objective audio science informs the subjective experience as to what is bias, placebo, audible, not audible, marketing, etc. It serves as consumer protection from audio companies and lack of consumer education if the consumer chooses to be educated. If they don’t, that’s their choice.

There are many ways to enjoy audio and ignorance can be bliss, that’s not a loaded statement - I “enjoyed” audio more before I understood the science behind it, but I’ll take money saved and veil lifted as to what’s legitimate information, marketing and my imagination. I enjoyed Santa Claus as a child but continuing to believe in Santa Claus because it makes me feel better isn’t how I choose to interact with Christmas. I subscribe to audio science and my subjective interpretations of it and preferences informed but not dictated by it - This has been the balance I’ve found to be the best for me.

 

[bmc0]

Science also requires "observation". [...] If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.

Any specific examples you'd like to point to? Uncontrolled listening does not constitute a scientific observation if the question is what is audible in the absence of non-auditory cues.
If someone claims that they heard a difference with some boutique power cord vs a standard one, I'd be inclined to believe them unless I had good reason to think they were being dishonest about their experience. The disagreement is not really about whether they heard a difference—it's the reason they heard a difference. Often, they will simply refuse to accept that their perception may have been the result of a placebo effect.

 

[Deleted member 97805]

Though he might be either. Why is he 'frantic' about the cable?

More to the point, what claim is he making and what's his evidence?

You seem to think Mr. Frantic is using a scientific method : observe then explain. He's not.

But when we at ASR observe his data, and marshall known science -- 'priors', one might say -- to dismiss it, you think we're at fault.

I have never claimed of either being wrong. Even though science is leaning towards an obvious direction.
If hes happy, why bother? If he believes he hears a difference, he might as well do . But what I saw here, time and time again, is inquisitorial accusations at best and outright ridicule at worst. Im speaking about certain people and definitely not about this whole forum or the administration.
And he should be allowed to state his opinion in a safe environment, without the fear of repercussions and pitchforks.
I have seldom seen a poster coming here and saying "My cable is better than yours!".
But I have seen, far too often, statements like "You are a fool. Get out!".
Maybe not worded like this but certainly with the same intention at heart.

 

[xray]

If enough people claim that they are observing/hearing differences, you cant dismiss their observation with some random graphic or absolute claims to refute their experience outright.

In the end it still boils down to numbers. Only through statistical analysis of the observations can you conclude whether the observations are meaningful.

 

[solderdude]

If hes happy, why bother? If he believes he hears a difference, he might as well do .

He does perceive a difference, it isn't even a matter of believing it is perception. If someone is happy with that ... also great.
This is not what is questioned though (the happiness nor the observation).
Most people will will hear differences even if there are none.
And that's the whole issue.

It is fine if one believes they hear differences but that does not contribute to anything.
The safe place to post those things are in different fora where perception is everything.

Now ... if a poster comes here looking for an explanation or comes on ASR to set ASR members straight by treating an observation as truth (it is to them, that's not questioned either) then it becomes another story.

 

[Deleted member 97805]

In the end it still boils down to numbers. Only through statistical analysis of the observations can you conclude whether the observations are meaningful.

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.
My initial point was not rebutting established facts, that are backed by years and years of data and research. I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.
Because there is a lot to be learned here and it would be a tragedy to gate keep this knowledge by some overly zealous users.

 

[Purité Audio]

Because it encourages charlatanism.
Keith

 

[IPunchCholla]

I have never claimed of either being wrong. Even though science is leaning towards an obvious direction.
If hes happy, why bother? If he believes he hears a difference, he might as well do . But what I saw here, time and time again, is inquisitorial accusations at best and outright ridicule at worst. Im speaking about certain people and definitely not about this whole forum or the administration.
And he should be allowed to state his opinion in a safe environment, without the fear of repercussions and pitchforks.
I have seldom seen a poster coming here and saying "My cable is better than yours!".
But I have seen, far too often, statements like "You are a fool. Get out!".
Maybe not worded like this but certainly with the same intention at heart.

That does not match my perception or experience. If individuals are making statements equivalent to “you are a fool. Get out!” Cite them, and report the proportion of answers that are such. This isn’t a cohesive organization where the statement of individual members reflects the opinions of all other members.

You can use this thread as an example and use standardized methods of coding to group statements into equivalent bins and then statistically analyze those bins to come up with a meaningful statement.

 

[xray]

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him?

Another person's emotional state has no relevance to me or any other potential buyer of the product.

 

[voodooless]

but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him?

What do you mean? Those people come here telling us we’re fools, idiots, don’t have equipment resolving enough, only look at charts, etc… who is bothering who here? And you can smell these people from a mile away. After 2 or 3 posts, you know exactly what you have. It is extremely consistent.

Why the ridicule?

That only start when those people deny basic physics and physiology and then triple down with bad faith arguments.

Anyone that engages in a decent as open way and tries to genuinely understand what is going on will have zero issues here. Sadly, this is a very small minority.

Because it encourages charlatanism.

Ding Ding Ding…!

 

[ahofer]

True, but you are dismissing their emotional state. Sure we are going into some esoteric territory hear but if a guy enjoys his expensive cable more than his previous cheaper one, why bother him? Why the ridicule? His experience TO HIM is just a valid, or even more so, as any scientific measurement.
My initial point was not rebutting established facts, that are backed by years and years of data and research. I just want this forum to be more approachable to people who are new to this hobby or just overly enthusiastic about their newest purchase.
Because there is a lot to be learned here and it would be a tragedy to gate keep this knowledge by some overly zealous users.

It is also valid to not care about their emotional state, especially when they are asserting falsifiable claims (such as “if thousands of people observe a difference you can’t just dismiss it”, which is arrant nonsense).

Most everyone here said a thousand times over it’s fine to enjoy useless cables at home. I don’t think you could find someone saying they shouldn’t. It’s when they make obviously false claims or stand up for charlatans selling lies that objections emerge. And rightly so.