Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Sal1950]

Why was I carefull to keep the company and product names? I was posting about audio and electronics gear. The facts are presented for you to accept or reject. I tend to think that if I were to include statement or information about how great my products are, it would take focus away from the conversation. You could say “the guy is just trying to sell his stuff”. So I stay on topic and I stay technical, my area.

Sorry, No offense intended Dan, and you are also more than welcome to join as a manufacturer and plug your products all you like.
(Just beware of what you wish for LOL)
That said, as it was I still saw what you were doing as skirting the intent. You had posted numerous times on how you manufacture this and that, how you do your measurements and so on. A number of our more inside members knew who we were immediately and although I played dumb, still I thought it was only fair if you were going that far you should at least identify who you were, so I then asked you politely to do so?
Many years back I was curious about who @j_j was. All it took was a quick click on his profile to find out who our most learned member was.

j_j

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Dan Lavry]

Well, maybe early 2000's when delta-sigma took over, and the "problems around zero" ceased to exist.

Regardless, the noise at your eardrum from molecules bouncing off it is not going to go away.


If it was only blather it would be ok. It's the threats, etc, that really need to stop.

It was the Crystal Semiconductors CS5390 chip. The first sigma delta for audio was designed by Bob Adams in the mid 80's. He is such a brilliant man!

 

[Dan Lavry]

Sorry, No offense intended Dan, and you are also more than welcome to join as a manufacturer and plug your products all you like.
(Just beware of what you wish for LOL)
That said, as it was I still saw what you were doing as skirting the intent. You had posted numerous times on how you manufacture this and that, how you do your measurements and so on. A number of our more inside members knew who we were immediately and although I played dumb, still I thought it was only fair if you were going that far you should at least identify who you were, so I then asked you politely to do so?
Many years back I was curious about who @j_j was. All it took was a quick click on his profile to find out who our most learned member was.

j_j

www.audiosciencereview.com

OK. Here is my story: I am an old electronics design engineer. I designed a few AD converters, for instrumentation, communications, weighing scales and medical. That was before digital audio. As a music lover, digital gave me an opportunity to combine my design experience and music. I designed audio AD and DA for other companies. But 35 years ago I started my own company, Lavry Engineering with a focus on high performance.

How can an unknown startup compete? There was only one way to get noticed, to be much better! To take over the high end. We did very well. Years pass by, technology improves and I kept my focus on the very high-end professional facilities (mastering, recording, mixing). We are doing great but still focusing only on the high end. Lavry Engineering converters are designed with features for music audio production, not for the audiophile market.

I love designing products, my son Marc runs the company. I often help testing AD when things get busy, but I am slowing down. I am just an old guy now.

 

[j_j]

It was the Crystal Semiconductors CS5390 chip. The first sigma delta for audio was designed by Bob Adams in the mid 80's. He is such a brilliant man!

There were others, but not so much for audio. JC Candy, OJ Benjamin, Structure of quantization noise from sigma-delta modulation. IEEE Transactions on Communications 29(9), 1316–1323 (1981).

Joe Condon also had some part in that, it's been a while since that. Jim Candy was "interesting" to work with. It's kind of funny how many things AT&T passed up that others took over succesfully.

Steve Norseworthy also had a hand in this. He was the one who put the convertor inside one of AT&T's DSP chips, and somebody or other was annoyed because it was "too good".

 

[voodooless]

It is difficult to verify performance in the time domain. In theory, you can feed a digital full scale random signal file (audio bandwidth) to a DA, convert back with the AD and compare the files. The approach has problems, a small DC offset and/or a small amplitude difference, cause mismatch. Also, time delays will need to be corrected and aligned to great accuracy. The approach is not practical.

You might be surprised how practical this has become. With software like DeltaWave this is really trivial, and takes care of all the things you mention. Just record whatever you like and compare.

Now the real question is how practical this really is as an analysis tool? I think it has it’s uses for sure, but the standardized set of analysis in the frequency domain are far easier to understand and give better, and more specific insights overall.

 

[voodooless]

How can an unknown startup compete? There was only one way to get noticed, to be much better! To take over the high end. We did very well. Years pass by, technology improves and I kept my focus on the very high-end professional facilities (mastering, recording, mixing). We are doing great but still focusing only on the high end. Lavry Engineering converters are designed with features for music audio production, not for the audiophile market

It seems to me that your definition of “high-end” is rather incongruent with what most of the industry thinks it means

 

[Sal1950]

I am just an old guy now.

That's true for many of us here, just look how gray J_J is.
Thanks for the outline, much appreciated.

It seems to me that your definition of “high-end” is rather incongruent with what most of the industry thinks it means

You read my mind, but I held back on saying anything, we already had a bumpy start.

 

[Dan Lavry]

That's true for many of us here, just look how gray J_J is.
Thanks for the outline, much appreciated.


You read my mind, but I held back on saying anything, we already had a bumpy start.

I have a lot of respect for JJ, I read some of his papers, learned things I did not know. But I know more about being old, by some years.

I guess high end means something I don't know(?) I meant to say top mastering and recording and also mixing facilities and studio. Pro levels of 24dBu, AES and SPDIF standards.... It is not for hi-fi.. What is the proper terminology these days? (I thought that high end means high performance).

 

[voodooless]

I guess high end means something I don't know(?) I meant to say top mastering and recording and also mixing facilities and studio. Pro levels of 24dBu, AES and SPDIF standards.... It is not for hi-fi.. What is the proper terminology these days?

I think it’s just called pro audio.

(I thought that high end means high performance).

You should really try a second career as a comedian

 

[solderdude]

These guys probably can (circa 1:27)

Everyone could be but it just needs to be converted to the correct symbols and then if one can understand those symbols (human brain) and knows the language the symbols are used for (also brain thingy) then one can understand the message it contains. Providing that brain is familiar with the meaning of the words (also brain thingy).

 

[antcollinet]

It seems to me that your definition of “high-end” is rather incongruent with what most of the industry thinks it means

At least what most of the "consumer audio" industry thinks it means. For them high end just means fancy enclosures** eye watering prices, and an ear candy marketing story, regardless of actual performance.

** sometimes you don't even get a luxury enclosure.

 

[voodooless]

At least what most of the "consumer audio" industry thinks it means. For them high end just means fancy enclosures** eye watering prices, and an ear candy marketing story, regardless of actual performance.

** sometimes you don't even get a luxury enclosure.

In that sense, pro audio gear prices pretty much track with objective performance and features, obviously with exceptions, usually involving the words "high-end" as well

 

[Dan Lavry]

I think it’s just called pro audio.

You should really try a second career as a comedian

did the hi-fi hijacked the term high end?

I will call it pro audio. I was trying to point at the high performance segment of pro audio. But as you can tell, I dont pay attention to marketing and sales. I dont need to. Others do that work. I prefer spending time in the lab.

So I came here to share some thoughts, and now I am an old joke. I guess it is the law of un intended consequences. Thanks but I really dont need that.

 

[antcollinet]

did the hi-fi hijacked the term high end?

In a huge way. Getting progressively worse over the last 45 years or so. Essentially since digital audio became effectively "perfect" and they needed to invent fairytale reasons to justify selling at a high price.

 

[JSmith]

I hope I am not breaking the forum rules.

Nah, you have an audio company tag already. Welcome to the forum Dan, appreciate your sharing your knowledge here.


JSmith

 

[voodooless]

did the hi-fi hijacked the term high end?

Pretty much, I'm afraid

I will call it pro audio. I was trying to point at the high performance segment of pro audio. But as you can tell, I dont pay attention to marketing and sales. I dont need to. Others do that work. I prefer spending time in the lab.

Yeah well, here on the forum, we have to spend a lot of time discussing the damage these marketing departments do on a daily basis. So it's quite refreshing to find somebody who doesn't seem to be "infected".

So I came here to share some thoughts, and now I am an old joke. I guess it is the law of un intended consequences. Thanks but I really dont need that.

You're not a joke at all On the contrary, the joke is on the industry. So, please, don't be discouraged.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Pretty much, I'm afraid

Yeah well, here on the forum, we have to spend a lot of time discussing the damage these marketing departments do on a daily basis. So it's quite refreshing to find somebody who doesn't seem to be "infected".

You're not a joke at all On the contrary, the joke is on the industry. So, please, don't be discouraged.

I suppose that, I can't imagine how far away from my little hifi world, Dan's products are. However, they do seem rather expensive on the UK site I just checked!

 

[RickS]

Yes, he talking about his company and manufacturing processes, etc, has Audio Company in his banner but nothing in his Account - About
I don't see it as matter of rules, but if your going this far why not identify yourself to those members here that don't already recognize the name?
Why the "insider" secret ?


No it's not, or I wouldn't have asked, Your evidence please

Due to JJ’s endorsement, Dan’s badging was fast tracked and we are catching him up on ASR rules for industry members.
Expect he will adjust soon but ask members to give him some time to more fully acclimate to ASR. Thanks!

 

[Sal1950]

I guess high end means something I don't know(?) I meant to say top mastering and recording and also mixing facilities and studio.

To many in the consumer Hi-Fi world, High End has come to represent the ultra expensive side of audio most clearly led by magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.
In this world it's not the accurate reproduction of the product that's most important, but rather the products price and what it says about financial means. If it costs more, it has to sound better, right? We have many threads here dedicated to exposing the sad snake-oil side of the industry and the direction it's taken. A very good example is this one,

What do you think is the standard price for HI-FI, HI-END?

Hello everyone! I posted an ASR article for the first time yesterday. I'm so happy that members are actively participating and discussing my questions together. I love conversations. I have an additional question. What price range do you consider as the threshold between HI-FI and HI-END in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

One of my latest addition to the thread was here,

What do you think is the standard price for HI-FI, HI-END?

Easy way to blow the budget with 100% snake oil Argento Audio Flow Ultima Cables Prices: 1m interconnect, $6850; 1.2m phono cable, $7750; 1m speaker cable, $10,250; 2m power cord, $6850 https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/argento-audio-flow-ultima-cables/?utm The one that makes me laugh...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Dan Lavry]

There were others, but not so much for audio. JC Candy, OJ Benjamin, Structure of quantization noise from sigma-delta modulation. IEEE Transactions on Communications 29(9), 1316–1323 (1981).

Joe Condon also had some part in that, it's been a while since that. Jim Candy was "interesting" to work with. It's kind of funny how many things AT&T passed up that others took over succesfully.

Steve Norseworthy also had a hand in this. He was the one who put the convertor inside one of AT&T's DSP chips, and somebody or other was annoyed because it was "too good"

There were others, but not so much for audio. JC Candy, OJ Benjamin, Structure of quantization noise from sigma-delta modulation. IEEE Transactions on Communications 29(9), 1316–1323 (1981).

Joe Condon also had some part in that, it's been a while since that. Jim Candy was "interesting" to work with. It's kind of funny how many things AT&T passed up that others took over succesfully.

Steve Norseworthy also had a hand in this. He was the one who put the convertor inside one of AT&T's DSP chips, and somebody or other was annoyed because it was "too good".

The early sigma delta I recall used a second order filter. They were “stable”, but the performance was limited (good enough for speech?). Higher order filters came with a new concept- “conditional stability”. The first time I saw higher order filters was the Bob Adams design (mid 80’s).

Did the earlier sigma delta you mention utilize higher than second order?