Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[ahofer]

They look cooler

Phallic Brutalism is very popular in the trade.

And Primaluna has that delightful chaotic impedance interaction with your speakers.

 

[Sal1950]

They look cooler

We all have our opinions on Kool.
I believe the VTL Compact Monoblocks I used for 14 years were Kool, and also quite good measuring. for tubers

For SS amps, it's hard to beat my Phase Linear 700B for good looks!

Then for just plain ole solid industrial design, my stack of Adcom GFA 545 IIs

All JMHO LOL

 

[antcollinet]

Really? I think that is a highly controversial statement for ASR. Please elaborate.

The statement "well measuring" is often left out.

 

[antcollinet]

So when Amir says he’s listened to hundreds of valve amps at shows and never liked them

Read the quote again. That is not what he said.

 

[Sal1950]

Phallic Brutalism is very popular in the trade.

LOL, Personally I do find that a handsome little integrated amp.
Too bad PrimaLuna appears to have a problem with designing/purchasing some well designed output transformers.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Read the quote again. That is not what he said.

Apologies, he didn’t say “hundreds at shows” he said “ probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses.”
I’m not sure how that changes my contention though. He’s listened to a lot either way and subjectively he prefers the sound of solid state. It’s still anecdotal

 

[krabapple]

Maybe, but your assertion fails your own test. You are basing it off anecdotes.



Saying that an industry expert can't reliably discern significantly bad distortion without doing a blind test is a form of denialism. We don't have to be that skeptical.

But we will admit there's still a not-absurdly-improbable chance they could be wrong.
We will note, it wouldn't pass for a scientific peer reviewed publication.
So, alas, for that purpose, to nail it down would require controlled listening or a measurement set that pointed reasonably to audibility.

Everyone's free to calibrate their trust to other standards, like, e.g., experience. But it is a compromise.

 

[antcollinet]

Apologies, he didn’t say “hundreds at shows” he said “ probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses.”
I’m not sure how that changes my contention though. He’s listened to a lot either way and subjectively he prefers the sound of solid state. It’s still anecdotal

In particular, he didn't say

Amir says he’s listened to hundreds of valve amps at shows and never liked them

He said :

and have listened to probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses, and I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state.

(My bold in both cases)

A very different statement. Not that he didn't like all of them. Just that he's never heard a tube amp sounding better than solid state. Then adds he's heard tube amps that sound worse many times.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

A very different statement. Not that he didn't like all of them. Just that he's never heard a tube amp sounding better than solid state.

And in my correction I said

He’s listened to a lot either way and subjectively he prefers the sound of solid state. It’s still anecdotal

However, my point remains that even quoting his words precisely (which I confess I didn’t do), his comments are just anecdotes.

 

[Mort]

his comments are just anecdotes.

...aaaaand no one said they weren't. Straw man like the way you keep misquoting.

Anyway...

What was stated is that we can reasonably have confidence in him, as a significantly trained listener, to tell some bad devices by ear without proving it to anyone (your requirement) in a double blind test. That's really not a far stretch. There are known trained ears and many really bad devices. If we knew your credentials, we would offer you the same courtesy.

 

[MattHooper]

Okay, I did it, and here's my report:
It's not a common thing here at all and you made that up for reasons unknown. You call it "self-deprecation" but it's not--you're deprecating others, not yourself.

Ok…I admit I sort of “sinad chased” in purchasing my Benchmark gear. It had the necessary features I wanted in a pre-amplifier, but I also bought it because I enjoyed the idea of owning what was (at least of the time) one of the lowest distortion consumer amplification products available.
The degree to which its distortion was lower than any number of other solid state amplifiers I could’ve bought was no doubt inaudible.

I seem to remember others who purchased Benchmark gear (or similarly ultra low distortion stuff measured here) commenting with similar motives when it comes to purchasing gear who were impressed by measurements that in audible terms don’t distinguish themselves from plenty of other gear.

 

[MattHooper]

Picking the best bits of the replies already posted, and trying to be really succinct, I would put it this way: although most amps are designed for transparency and do sound the same with every speaker when not being overdriven, this transparency is not true of every amp out there. So, the 'ASR line' is that amps do sound the same if they are designed for transparency and are built to spec, but some are misconceived, or underpowered for some uses, and these will not sound the same.

cheers

Well put. With the exception that it is missing: and those amplifiers (typically tube) designed to operate/sound different from solid state.

(Some may wish to put that in the
“ misconceived” Category, but that would be more of a subjective judgement - an amplifier designed to sound the way the designer conceived it would not be “ misconceived” IMO)

 

[antcollinet]

And in my correction I said

However, my point remains that even quoting his words precisely (which I confess I didn’t do), his comments are just anecdotes.

Still not what he said - he did not say in that post that he prefers the sound of solid state - just that he's not heard one sound better than solid state, and has heard plenty that sound worse.

And anecdote or not - there is no claim here to hear a difference between similarly well measuring amps. We know that some tube amps are pure distortion generators - as measured. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that this is audible in many cases. We are not in the situation where someone is making an unlikely claim of audibility and therefore needs to back up their claim with blind testing. Just as I don't need to blind test to tell you I just heard some traffic outside.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Still not what he said - he did not say in that post that he prefers the sound of solid state - just that he's not heard one sound better than solid state, and has heard plenty that sound worse.

Again you are missing my point. I’m not good at expressing this stuff so I’ll try again.

When Amir says “..probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses, and I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state“…what does that even mean? In order to walk into an unfamiliar room at a show with an unknown set of equipment playing and be able to say this doesn’t sound as good as if there were a solid state amp playing is a big call. I’m

 

[olds1959special]

Measurements show you what your ears can more or less tell you with some training and talent! But measurements are more precise and therefore essential!

 

[Sal1950]

Well put. With the exception that it is missing: and those amplifiers (typically tube) designed to operate/sound different from solid state.

However, my point remains that even quoting his words precisely (which I confess I didn’t do), his comments are just anecdotes.

Considering we're talking about High Fidelity here, and that Amir has measured and heard so many amplifiers. I can't think of a better person to be
able to pick out the accurate from the inaccurate.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

This:

What was stated is that we can reasonably have confidence in him, as a significantly trained listener, to tell some bad devices by ear without proving it to anyone (your requirement) in a double blind test

And this:

Considering we're talking about High Fidelity here, and that Amir has measured and heard so many amplifiers. I can't think of a better person to be
able to pick out the accurate from the inaccurate.

Are what I’m trying to call out. They sound very close to implying that he has golden ears. For sure 100% he is well trained. Certainly much better than me. But you can’t train away bias.
You can’t say that someone can walk into a room at a show and pick that a system would sound better with a solid state amp.
It’s like saying you could walk into a room where all the components are behind an acoustically transparent curtain and pick whether the amp being used is valve or solid state.

 

[Jim Taylor]

It’s like saying you could walk into a room where all the components are behind an acoustically transparent curtain and pick whether the amp being used is valve or solid state.

Are you saying that is not possible to pick out one of the "boutique" non-NFB tube amps (or an SET) driving a loudspeaker that has high reactance in the bass?

 

[stalepie2]

Today I was reminiscing about earlier times in the online headphone culture while talking to my computer (Microsoft Copilot). Embarrassing, I'm sure! But here are a couple of the responses (the first one mentions ASR at the end):

That's right, I forget all about tubes. Also there R2R... like FiiO K11 R2R. Maybe a ladder DAC would sound interesting (or maybe it sounds the same). I almo...

Shared via Copilot

copilot.microsoft.com

sure, walk me through an emotional map. Maybe I'll share this with ASR too

Shared via Copilot

copilot.microsoft.com

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Are you saying that is not possible to pick out one of the "boutique" non-NFB tube amps (or an SET) driving a loudspeaker that has high reactance in the bass?

I'm saying that I doubt anyone could pick whether a tube or solid state amp is playing if the only information they have is the sound (ie the entire setup is behind an acoustically transparent curtain so that they have no idea what the components are).