Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Svend P]

Yep, very much the same as the statements that we believe "all amplifiers sound the same" , nothing could be further from the truth.

Really? I think that is a highly controversial statement for ASR. Please elaborate.

 

[Audionaut]

Then it should be easy to link to at least 5 or 10 of those many examples

What is this, a tribunal? ASR member on trial?
No one here feels like searching for specific comments just because you want to play the inquisitor.
If I come across such statements again, I will post them here.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

What is this, a tribunal? ASR member on trial?
No one here feels like searching for specific comments just because you want to play the inquisitor.
If I come across such statements again, I will post them here.

I already did the research

 

[Sal1950]

Really? I think that is a highly controversial statement for ASR. Please elaborate.

No problem, not sure where you would like me to go with that?
Since we are discussing ASR, rather than put up any personal opinions I'll start with one quote from Amir on tube amps, for which I have much the same experiences and completely agree.

"I have tested a number of tube amps and have listened to probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses. I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state. I have however, found tube amps to sound much worse many times. The sound is routinely muddy and if you crank up the volume, it can get distorted in a hurry.
On PrimaLuna, when Madrona Digital first started, we had a fancy showroom so the rep wanted us to carry them. I listened to a loaner one and thought it sounded horrid and passed on it."

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

No problem, not sure where you would like me to go with that?
Since we are discussing ASR, rather than put up any personal opinions I'll start with one quote from Amir on tube amps, for which I have much the same experiences and completely agree.

"I have tested a number of tube amps and have listened to probably 100+ at shows and friend's houses. I have never, ever heard it sound better than solid state. I have however, found tube amps to sound much worse many times. The sound is routinely muddy and if you crank up the volume, it can get distorted in a hurry.
On PrimaLuna, when Madrona Digital first started, we had a fancy showroom so the rep wanted us to carry them. I listened to a loaner one and thought it sounded horrid and passed on it."

Yes but he doesn’t say if the testing was properly level matched and blinded

 

[kyuu]

Yes but he doesn’t say if the testing was properly level matched and blinded

Not sure if serious? For egregious flaws you don't need double blind testing to verify. The flaws are also quite evident if those tube amps have measurements done.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes but he doesn’t say if the testing was properly level matched and blinded

LOL

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Not sure if serious? For egregious flaws you don't need double blind testing to verify. The flaws are also quite evident if those tube amps have measurements done.

I’m half serious. I think people can overestimate what is egregious. I suspect in a lot of cases valve amp measurements may look horrible but in a proper ABX they may be really hard to tell apart from a superbly measuring amp

 

[kyuu]

I’m half serious. I think people can overestimate what is egregious. I suspect in a lot of cases valve amp measurements may look horrible but in a proper ABX they may be really hard to tell apart from a superbly measuring amp

If it's a good tube amp, then I'd agree. They can certainly be good enough to be difficult or impossible to distinguish (within their limits). I'd be willing to wager that there are a lot of them that aren't good, however, particularly boutique ones.

 

[DSJR]

I think amp tests are more academic these days as long as they're not acting as equalisers to the impedance curves they're made to drive.Valve amps here can be terrible in that one aspect alone I feel.....

As for speakers, sure and in my current opinion, Klippel measurements can inform an experienced person very well BUT, all the parameters need to be looked at and listened to un the design as a whole and subtly juggling these parameters once the fundamentals have been got pretty much right, can give perceived changes in listener satisfaction even if the basic measurementsd don't look much of any different.

 

[dlaloum]

Really? I think that is a highly controversial statement for ASR. Please elaborate.

You need to consider the more complete statement which would be along the lines of:

All decent quality amplifiers are effectively audibly identical when performing within their designed/specified performance envelope.

ie: yes they can sound different when being stressed by driving speakers at impedances/phase angles they are not designed for, and/or at power levels beyond their performance envelope - when they exit their performance envelope, different amps misbehave differently, resulting in differing audible effects.

Do a DBT using easy to drive 8ohm speakers, and every time it has been done, no one could differentiate between the amps reliably!!

Having said that, I have heard amps sound different driving my Gallo speakers - but their impedance drops to 1.6ohm, with a capacitive tweeter - and lots of amps don't like that. - The amps that get "unhappy" are also amps that definitely do not include 1.6ohm speakers in their specifications!
Amps that allow for impedances down to 1ohm (eg: Crown, Quad) sound identical to each other.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

If it's a good tube amp, then I'd agree. They can certainly be good enough to be difficult or impossible to distinguish (within their limits). I'd be willing to wager that there are a lot of them that aren't good, however, particularly boutique ones.

If we define good as “unable to be distinguished from a superbly measuring amp in an ABX test” then of course we agree (by definition!).
My point is that I think “good” kicks in at a level which is far worse than many people think.

As an anecdote, I tried a valve amp in my system a while ago. I was shocked at how good it sounded compared to my solid state amp. Aware that the valve amp had more gain I level matched very roughly (pink noise using a decibel meter on my phone). The differences became very hard to pick - even sighted.

So when Amir says he’s listened to hundreds of valve amps at shows and never liked them, I don’t think it’s controversial to say that is useless other than as an anecdote.

 

[xanalog]

If we’re listening to music that others made we’re not the artist. If you buy a painting, you’re also not going to paint over it.

During a protest --at the NationalGallery in London-- PhoebePlummer/AnnaHolland threw tomato soup at VanGogh's "Sunflowers".
Activists as artists?

Show me evidence of someone saying "I'm selling my 105 dB SINAD Audiophonics amp to get a 111 dB Buckeye".

Oh, Oh! I was almost that evidence you seek: I sold my FOSI ZA3 for a 3E A7 (2ch.)... but only after buying the 3E first.

 

[Newman]

[to Sal, who said it is not an ASR belief that all amps sound the same] Really? I think that is a highly controversial statement for ASR. Please elaborate.

Picking the best bits of the replies already posted, and trying to be really succinct, I would put it this way: although most amps are designed for transparency and do sound the same with every speaker when not being overdriven, this transparency is not true of every amp out there. So, the 'ASR line' is that amps do sound the same if they are designed for transparency and are built to spec, but some are misconceived, or underpowered for some uses, and these will not sound the same.

cheers

 

[Sal1950]

I’m half serious. I think people can overestimate what is egregious. I suspect in a lot of cases valve amp measurements may look horrible but in a proper ABX they may be really hard to tell apart from a superbly measuring amp

The differences became very hard to pick - even sighted.

And there in lies the rub, not impossible, just hard.
Even with todays technology, it takes very heroic and expensive design efforts to create a tube amp capable of being sonicly indistinguishable from even a fairly mundane SS. Without such efforts they all fall apart at freq extremes, have audible difficultly with demanding speaker loads, etc etc etc.

In the last 20-odd years, the vast majority of tube amps that I've heard have been of the "boutique" variety. They have been, variously, SET amps or amps that advertised low or no feedback. If there has been any obvious giveaway to these amps, it has been the characteristic of their bass reproduction. In particular, I heard a pair of Focal 3-ways driven by Rogue monoblocks, and the bass was, to use my own words, "wild and woolly".

Amen, the vast majority of todays tubes are voiced to sound a particular way, (inaccurate) and you can immediately see it in the measurements, no surprises there. I mean, what's the point of manufacturing a very expensive tube amp if it doesn't sound immediately different?

 

[Mort]

what's the point of manufacturing a very expensive tube amp

They look cooler

 

[Mort]

My point is that I think “good” kicks in at a level which is far worse than many people think.

Maybe, but your assertion fails your own test. You are basing it off anecdotes.

So when Amir says he’s listened to hundreds of valve amps at shows and never liked them, I don’t think it’s controversial to say that is useless other than as an anecdote.

Saying that an industry expert can't reliably discern significantly bad distortion without doing a blind test is a form of denialism. We don't have to be that skeptical.

 

[Mart68]

They look cooler

I don't think so but then my idea of a cool looking amp is a Yamaha MX1000.

To me tube amps are at best anachronistic, at worst ridiculous. I've heard many tube based systems, and only with a handful was the system producing a good sound. It doesn't help that many tube owners are totally unaware of the drawbacks and how to compensate for them.

Like Amir I've been subjected to a Prima Luna and it was dreadful, speakers were admittedly not the best match but even so the thing cost five grand and you have to worry about what speakers you hook up? Not for me.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Maybe, but your assertion fails your own test. You are basing it off anecdotes.

And I’ve qualified my comments with a lot of “I think”. So I’m not making any strong assertions.
Mind you, I think most people who do the “what level of distortion can you hear” tests that are linked in various posts on ASR are surprised at how bad it has to be before it’s audible. I know I was! I don’t think my opinion/assertion is particularly controversial.

Saying that an industry expert can't reliably discern significantly bad distortion without doing a blind test is a form of denialism. We don't have to be that skeptical.

I don’t believe I said that.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

And there in lies the rub, not impossible, just hard

I did say it was hard even with very basic level matching and sighted. I imagine once those cues were removed, with a decent valve amp, it would be impossible. In my anecdote, I certainly would not back myself to pick any difference in a properly blinded test.