Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[dlaloum]

If people actually cared about precision sound they would spend most of their time, effort, and money on room treatment (or construction, with larger budgets). Mediocre speakers and electronics sound stunning in a proper room.

Hence my interest in Dirac ART....

Most of our listening systems are located in shared living areas - where as a "shareholder", we only have limited influence on the furnishings and layout etc...
Dirac ART appears to bring an interesting DSP approach to "treating the room" - something that has to date been impossible (or merely the domain of science fiction)

Dirac ART, is I think, the first in a genre of DSP software, that endeavours through DSP, to remedy the issues imposed by the room. (as opposed to Frequency response tailoring / tuning, which has been commonplace since the graphic equaliser was invented way back in the 60's and 70's)

 

[RickS]

After successful execution of a hat trick of trolling this thread, our latest offender is taking a temporary break from the forum. Not sure whether he will be returning so may be a while before you get a reply.

He racked up his points by attacking other members. Thanks to the vast majority of members who exercise better etiquette while posting here!

 

[Mnyb]

After successful execution of a hat trick of trolling this thread, our latest offender is taking a temporary break from the forum. Not sure whether he will be returning so may be a while before you get a reply.

He racked up his points by attacking other members. Thanks to the vast majority of members who exercise better etiquette while posting here!

That was quick I missed the trolling thanks for the vigilance

 

[ChefBrunch]

Measurements only tell you if something makes a noise it doesn't tell you if something makes music.

 

[Purité Audio]

Oh lord.
Keith

 

[oleg87]

Measurements only tell you if something makes a noise it doesn't tell you if something makes music.

I have measured this post and determined that it is noise

 

[RickS]

Measurements only tell you if something makes a noise it doesn't tell you if something makes music.

Most audio products are measured and rarely listened to when they are manufactured. Many sound just fine despite not playing music until after it is purchased. As my new music class taught me - one person’s noise may be another person’s music!

Let’s see if you can make some worthy music here.

 

[xray]

Measurements only tell you if something makes a noise it doesn't tell you if something makes music.

The science behind the measurements is the same as the science behind how the music was recorded and the same as the science used to design the electronics being measured. You can't be selective in where you think it's valid.

 

[oleg87]

Most audio products are measured and rarely listened to when they are manufactured

While they are useful as a coarse but broad diagnostic, frankly, human ears need not be involved at any point in the design of high-fidelity audio equipment.
Back when I worked adjacent to that part of the industry, I don't think I ever heard an engineer discuss the performance of a converter in terms of anything other than measurable metrics. "Music" is for the marketing folks.

 

[antcollinet]

Measurements only tell you if something makes a noise it doesn't tell you if something makes music.

We don't need measurements to tell us that - we know something will both make a noise and make music.

What the measurements tell us if the 'thing' will play those noises or that music - without changing them by adding noise or distortion. In the ideal world any changes will be inaudible. Well measuring devices achieve this. Look at the measurements of a well performing device and you can be assured the music that comes out of the device is audibly exactly the same as the music that goes into it.

 

[oleg87]

As a reminder, one of these images is an extract of "music" on a slightly larger timescale than what audio electronics see, and the other is a deterministic test signal in which an audio analyzer can detect non-linearities with magnitudes greater sensitivity than the human ear.

I wonder if an amp is smart enough to tell the two apart

 

[dshreter]

It's a really good hypothesis that our hearing system could be sensitive to things that are not apparent in signals analysis. It's absolutely a hypothesis that is worth testing...

Spoiler

...which is why it has been tested over and over and over and when there is good experimental design the null hypothesis has never been rejected.

 

[krabapple]

Speaking as a musician who has professional experience in audio and music-related technical jobs: the artist in me wins. If it sounds good, I don't care how it measures. If there's a problem, measuring/CAE etc. are helpful in figuring out why and possibly how to improve it. But they aren't the arbiters.

Ah, yes, the artist

<recordist sets up board>
"How's that sound?"
<artist strums a chord>
"uh, I dunno, needs more brown."
<recordist adjusts knob that artist can see, but is connected to nothing>
"How's that?"
"That's it!"

Guess they're human, too.

 

[voodooless]

If we’re listening to music that others made we’re not the artist. If you buy a painting, you’re also not going to paint over it.

 

[MarkS]

If you buy a painting, you’re also not going to paint over it.

But you do have to decide how to display it, how to light it, how far away to stand while looking at it.

 

[voodooless]

But you do have to decide how to display it, how to light it, how far away to stand while looking at it.

Sure. All of that is subjective for the most part (I think we all agree that putting a painting in a dark room is no good…) but there is a difference between touching the painting, and accommodating the painting in a room.

 

[dlaloum]

Ah, yes, the artist

<recordist sets up board>
"How's that sound?"
<artist strums a chord>
"uh, I dunno, needs more brown."
<recordist adjusts knob that artist can see, but is connected to nothing>
"How's that?"
"That's it!"

Guess they're human, too.

I set up some sound reinforcement for an Oud performance (as a volunteer) - got everything set up so the natural sound of the Oud (middle eastern lute) was perfectly reproduced throughout the space.... (very happy with it!)

Artist response : can you turn up the bass....
I complied... the end result no longer sounded like an Oud, but the artist was happy

In general, I intensely dislike most electronic reinforcements of acoustic instruments....

Years ago I recall going to a concert by a mandolin orchestra, where they had organised a series of 4 (I think?) electrostatic speakers, to gently reinforce their sound, without altering it....

Great sounding concert that one!

 

[Newman]

But you do have to decide how to display it, how to light it, how far away to stand while looking at it.

That's analogous to the room treatment and listening setup. One still doesn't put on tinted glasses with optical distortion to look at the picture: that would be coloured speakers.

 

[krabapple]

Sure. All of that is subjective for the most part (I think we all agree that putting a painting in a dark room is no good…) but there is a difference between touching the painting, and accommodating the painting in a room.

I upmix stereo recordings to surround. Is that 'touching' or 'accommodating'?

I would say the latter. 'Touching' would be: overdubbing another instrument onto the recording. But one could argue....

 

[MattHooper]

That's analogous to the room treatment and listening setup.

I agree that is one way in which you could make that analogy.

It’s worth keeping in mind though that there is not some in principal distinction between colorations you might introducing via room treatment and set up - to taste - and any other form of colouration to the signal. If different choices in the above alter the sound and they do, it’s just another way of playing with sound colorations.

One still doesn't put on tinted glasses with optical distortion to look at the picture: that would be coloured speakers.

Also worth remembering even esteemed audio experts recommend the use of tone controls when you want to adjust the sound to taste. And when you do so, with respect to any recordings you adjust, you are putting on those “ tinted glasses.” Whether that frequency response deviation is coming from your loudspeakers themselves or your own fiddling with tone controls. (Or up-mixing stereo to surround or other such manipulations).

Personally, I don’t use any tone controls or EQ frequency manipulation to adjust for different recordings. But that’s not out of slavishness to the signal - i’ve simply put together a system in which I like the sound generally speaking of almost everything I play through my system so I don’t feel the need. (Though out of fun and curiosity, I will sometimes play with things like room, acoustics, and speaker set up, etc.)