Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[voodooless]

How did we get from DAC filters to speaker preferences?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

You certainly don't seem to be getting the point of these forums. Luckily for you, there are apparently tons of "subjectivist" sites for you to research. Since I discovered this place, I simply don't need any other sites. I used to be fond of Stereophile, until I discovered that a poster of vile comments in a longish trail of comments was indeed the reviewer. You may guess who he is. Anyway, no need for that stress. ASR covers all the bases, for me.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

How did we get from DAC filters to speaker preferences?

View attachment 485891

Nice one V.

 

[solderdude]

If some people want an Echo chambers where no questions are allowed then I’m not sure what the point of a forum.

'Some people that want an echo chamber' is not what/who (this) forum is for.

 

[pablolie]

tl;dr … thing is, @TTT15 is actually right. Personal preference is the key performance indicator ...

That's too much of a simplification that doesn't fly with me. There are *always* perfectly measurable performance parameters that allow a somewhat knowledgeable person to narrow down their best possible product choices given their personal preferences.

If I value fuel economy as an important attribute in my future car, I'd be utterly stupid to go buy a 20 year old Hummer just because I like the rugged looks... and did zero research and just believed what the used car salesman was telling me.

If you love listening to music (and why would we be here otherwise), you'd be doing yourself an utter and complete disservice listening to it through a majorly flawed system. And don't tell me about tubes and vinyl... designed and set up competently, they don't sound horrible, *plus* one can perfectly measure "warmness" and such (harmonics). Just because the person providing the measurements interprets measurements in a certain way doesn't mean you should take that implied judgement as a universal truth.

Learn to interpret measurements for yourself and your own preferences. They are a godsent shortcut to arrive at intelligent, informed decisions.

Being driven by raw passion is cool at times, but often regrettable in the midterm.

 

[pablolie]

This is the Erin‘s Corner There is no perfect loud speaker video to try to illustrate my current impression. He is not dismissing Toole at all, quite the contrary, merely suggesting that there are inevitably trade offs between different measurements and that there is an element of personal preference. I don’t know if that is true or not but generally in life I see trade offs and preferences so it seems reasonable to me. In addition, I would suggest that there are also other factors like price, aesthetics, features, availability and customer service. iPods and Sonos are popularly preferred by consumers and many would argue they are quite happy with the sound quality. I’m not sure why the perspective that there might not be many absolutes and there might be some nuances and preferences in choosing HiFi is so triggering for some people. That doesn’t seem to be the view of Erin or most ASR participants. The absolutists seem to be in the minority tail of the curve. If some people want an Echo chambers where no questions are allowed then I’m not sure what the point of a forum.

You are arguing in circles.

No one has ever claimed you should not listen to a product to check if you enjoy it. No one has ever claimed there are no aesthetics or price points etc that may also influence a preference. No one said to buy eyes closed just because Amir (or someone else) personally approves of the measurements and recommends it.

NO ONE.

It's just that when someone throws you a bone and halfway agrees with your opinion, you take it as a reason to go back to square one and basically state measurements shouldn't really matter much when it comes to a making a choice.

In message 16,155 in this thread, you start with conciliatory talk, and then throw in a pearl of a sentence like "In the outside world awkward questions don’t go away". Come on. Stop. That's going back to square one, after all the conciliatory BS you do a 180 and end up saying that we're just a bunch of robotic theorists in ASR that don't have personal preferences, and can't deal with real world problems. Geez.

We're NOT in fantasy land here, and it's actually the opposite: If you do NOT consider measurements sufficiently, it means you didn't inform yourself to make an educated decision. You are MORE likely to end up unhappy. It is the ones that blindly trust "experts", don't inform themselves, and throw a lot of disposable income at very questionable stuff... and then try to convince the world their stuff is the best without being able to convey why (other than price tag). Willful ignorance is a sin (literally, it's in the Bible like Hosea 4:6).

I have a funny anecdote about one such person: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...inear-power-supply-for-dacs.7021/post-1581408

 

[voodooless]

Some people want absolute neutrality, others like a touch of warmth or certain dynamics that measurements alone can't fully express.

That doesn't make sense. If you can't measure it, it's not there.

 

[Jim Taylor]

That's a really good point - measurements give you the foundation, but how you interpret and prioritize them depends on what you value most in a system. I see it as a balance: clean, transparent performance lets you trust that what you're hearing is accurate, but at the end of the day, enjoyment still comes down to preference. Some people want absolute neutrality, others like a touch of warmth or certain dynamics that measurements alone can't fully express. The key is learning what the data means and using it as a tool - not a religion. Numbers guide your choices, but your ears and goals should seal the deal.

Science is the Method of discovering the attributes of the universe. Science is dispassionate, impersonal and unemotional. It is fueled by data. Data is simply observations expressed as numerical values. This data is transferable from one person in time and location to another person in time and location. This trait is called reproducibility, and it is one of the foundations of the Scientific Method.
Humans, OTOH, express emotions. They use these emotions to construct a value system. These emotions are unique to each and every different person. These emotions are not reproducible from one person to another, and neither is the value system that they express. When we express personal preferences, we are using these emotions.

So scientific measurements have a different use compared to values expressed by emotion. They are two entirely different things, and they are used for two entirely different purposes. Measurements tell you what something is and what it does. Preference tells you how well you like something.

Both are a part of the human experience, and both are useful, but it's best not to get them mixed up. They are, after all is said and done, two totally different worlds.

 

[pablolie]

Science is the Method of discovering the attributes of the universe. Science is dispassionate, impersonal and unemotional. It is fueled by data. Data is simply observations expressed as numerical values. This data is transferable from one person in time and location to another person in time and location. This trait is called reproducibility, and it is one of the foundations of the Scientific Method.
Humans, OTOH, express emotions. They use these emotions to construct a value system. These emotions are unique to each and every different person. These emotions are not reproducible from one person to another, and neither is the value system that they express. When we express personal preferences, we are using these emotions.

So scientific measurements have a different use compared to values expressed by emotion. They are two entirely different things, and they are used for two entirely different purposes. Measurements tell you what something is and what it does. Preference tells you how well you like something.

Both are a part of the human experience, and both are useful, but it's best not to get them mixed up. They are, after all is said and done, two totally different worlds.

We *can* measure emotions by looking at levels of oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, endorphins, cortisol and what not. What causes those hormones to be released and the mood they cause is often impossible to explain by the person experiencing said mood itself.

In general, I agree that creating working math models of phenomena around us and our personal inner experience are to be viewed separately. But not always. Anyone that hasn't stayed together for life with their high school sweetheart probably curses the hormones that led to a doomed, unhappy romance. That they would be better off if they had told themselves "it's just a rush of stupid hormones, let's forget this crap and deal with important stuff in life".

I have made impulsive, expensive choices in life, wishing I had balanced pros and cons unemotionally. Haven't we all? So the two sides do mix in our lives, inevitably. So I don't agree with the conclusion they are "different worlds", we live reconciling the two, IMHO.

For example, if it came to measurements only, we'd probably all get Genelec speakers and be done with it. They measure superbly, and they make models for every possible deployment scenario. And yet I could not live with them simply because I find them ugly, a sentiment I can't rationally explain... and I don't need to. Argue with me about it and see how much I care. But unlike some in this thread, I would never draw the conclusion that means measurements are overrated and therefore superfluous.

As Ovid wrote, human nature often settles for "video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor" ("I recognize the better but settle for the next best").

 

[Heinrich]

Learn to interpret measurements for yourself and your own preferences. They are a godsent shortcut to arrive at intelligent, informed decisions.

Sure! Speaker directivity is a relatively new parameter to be measured, and supersedes on-axis response sometimes. Distortion in electronics is a non-issue, ppm or ppbillion, who actually cares?
In short, the focus changes sometimes slowly. How could we tell that today‘s wisdom will hold forever?

I‘m under the impression that nearly perfect performance is achieved at like 3k for home use. I‘m considering performance parameters like intermodulation, even Doppler as crucial. They are not yet measured or discussed, see the problem?

 

[pablolie]

...
I‘m under the impression that nearly perfect performance is achieved at like 3k for home use.

And I'd agree.

I‘m considering performance parameters like intermodulation, even Doppler as crucial. They are not yet measured or discussed, see the problem?

I am not sure I follow... First you say we have achieved near perfect performance levels at 3k, but now suddenly we have a new major measurement issue because we don't capture intermodulation enough?

 

[TTT15]

You are arguing in circles.

No one has ever claimed you should not listen to a product to check if you enjoy it. No one has ever claimed there are no aesthetics or price points etc that may also influence a preference. No one said to buy eyes closed just because Amir (or someone else) personally approves of the measurements and recommends it.

NO ONE.

It's just that when someone throws you a bone and halfway agrees with your opinion, you take it as a reason to go back to square one and basically state measurements shouldn't really matter much when it comes to a making a choice.

In message 16,155 in this thread, you start with conciliatory talk, and then throw in a pearl of a sentence like "In the outside world awkward questions don’t go away". Come on. Stop. That's going back to square one, after all the conciliatory BS you do a 180 and end up saying that we're just a bunch of robotic theorists in ASR that don't have personal preferences, and can't deal with real world problems. Geez.

We're NOT in fantasy land here, and it's actually the opposite: If you do NOT consider measurements sufficiently, it means you didn't inform yourself to make an educated decision. You are MORE likely to end up unhappy. It is the ones that blindly trust "experts", don't inform themselves, and throw a lot of disposable income at very questionable stuff... and then try to convince the world their stuff is the best without being able to convey why (other than price tag). Willful ignorance is a sin (literally, it's in the Bible like Hosea 4:6).

I have a funny anecdote about one such person: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...inear-power-supply-for-dacs.7021/post-1581408

Somewhat as they are merely my musings and I don’t have any fixed views at this stage but your interpretation is not what I’m thinking. DAC filters I only think might make a difference at the margins in ideal listening. They certainly don’t make a difference on my modest old speakers which need replacing, or if I’m on the go or listening in the background. Ie the way most people listen to music. The Dan Clark Stealth left me non plussed so as Amir says headphones measurements only appear to be part of the story. Toole all looks good to me and makes sense so Dutch and Dutch and KEF are on my list to Demo but if I just happened to prefer something else then I’m sorry enjoyment wins. Sonos freely admit they don’t go for the most accurate HiFi sound but a sound they think most people will enjoy as a life style speaker and they are pretty successful. iPods are popular so clearly measurements and research are good and useful but they do t seem to be the universal priority for the majority of the population for their use case. If you care about accuracy then sure but if you are going off preferences curves then it seems most people don’t care. I’m not sure why that is so controversial to be honest. I’m still not sure how you are meant to weight the different measurements though.

 

[pablolie]

... I’m not sure why that is so controversial to be honest. I’m still not sure how you are meant to weight the different measurements though.

It is *not* controversial. Personally, I think any SINAD over 90dB is great.

And everybody will interpret and prioritize measurements differently. All it takes is knowing how to read measurements and prioritize the ones that matter to you, personally.

I could not care less if an amp doesn't produce more than 75W as long as it's "balanced" (i.e. can drive various loads etc). I don't care if a speaker doesn't have a ruler flat response from 20-20k Hz.

That's because I don't have to drive a huge room, I care about my hearing enough to not expose them to damaging noise levels, I know how to integrate a sub with my sub/system... etc.

But those are *my* considerations. Nobody else's. Others will read the same measurements differently as they assess equipment for their particular use.

 

[Heinrich]

I am not sure I follow... First you say we have achieved near perfect performance levels at 3k, but now suddenly we have a new major measurement issue because we don't capture intermodulation enough?

IM is not measured and evaluated on a regular basis. I would say IM is a parameter to be considered. Back in the day people didn‘t think that smooth directivity with speakers is a primary goal, today it gets emphasized a lot. Perspectives change.

 

[dfuller]

This is the Erin‘s Corner There is no perfect loud speaker video to try to illustrate my current impression. He is not dismissing Toole at all, quite the contrary, merely suggesting that there are inevitably trade offs between different measurements and that there is an element of personal preference. I don’t know if that is true or not but generally in life I see trade offs and preferences so it seems reasonable to me. In addition, I would suggest that there are also other factors like price, aesthetics, features, availability and customer service. iPods and Sonos are popularly preferred by consumers and many would argue they are quite happy with the sound quality. I’m not sure why the perspective that there might not be many absolutes and there might be some nuances and preferences in choosing HiFi is so triggering for some people. That doesn’t seem to be the view of Erin or most ASR participants. The absolutists seem to be in the minority tail of the curve. If some people want an Echo chambers where no questions are allowed then I’m not sure what the point of a forum.

To be clear, this applies to speakers - where there assuredly are measurable and more importantly audible tradeoffs that must be made - and not to electronics, where unless you specifically want an effect cleaner is better.

IM is not measured and evaluated on a regular basis. I would say IM is a parameter to be considered. Back in the day people didn‘t think that smooth directivity with speakers is a primary goal, today it gets emphasized a lot. Perspectives change.

IM on speakers is not measured enough, and the only person doing it with any sort of meaningful rigor that I know of is Erin. It's a complex metric to measure because it (shocker) is affected by frequency response.

 

[MattHooper]

There is no guarantee that when something measures 'perfect' (regardless of the used metrics) all listeners will enjoy/pefer it simply because of different personal taste.

That is how it’s worked out for me in my usual casual sighted listening tests.

I’ve listened to loudspeakers that I know measure very well, that I know would do really well in blind tests, including if I was part of the blind tests, and yet I’ve just felt sort of “blah” at the prospect of purchasing them or spending a long time listening.
Not that I prefer grossly coloured speakers as a rule, because I generally don’t like too far off neutral. But the speaker either “ does it for me” or it doesn’t, and so far I haven’t been able to discern precisely which I would like from the measurements (nor so far have I seen anybody else predict for me what I would like from the measurements).

And here is where people will diverge on the approach they would take under similar circumstances.

One approach, totally reasonable, is to say
“The fact that I seem to much prefer loudspeaker B over loudspeaker A, when I know that loudspeaker a measures ‘better’ is a reason for me to not trust my sighted impressions, and instead rely solely on the measurements to tell me which is better and purchase that one.”

That totally works for some people.

I go a different direction: I’m evaluating the loudspeakers in the same way I will be listening to them - informal sighted conditions. Therefore, I’m going to choose the loudspeaker that, under those conditions, I perceive to be more compelling and to sound better.

I do prefer to have measurements for a loudspeaker available as well. I like some level of comfort that I’m not choosing a speaker that measures like an absolute disaster, or which has some large gulf in the frequency response which is going to interfere with frequencies, I want to maintain.

I certainly wouldn’t claim to be infallible in terms of how my sighted perception matches the objective performance of a speaker (though I have noticed that my sighted impressions often enough tend to track pretty well with aspects of a speakers measured performance). But I’m not simply presuming I am perfectly accurately apprehending the sound of speakers.

But what I do know from long experience is that my sighted listening impressions have been very reliable and trustworthy. Whatever impression I have of a loudspeaker from early on remains extremely persistent under my normal listening conditions. And I’ve never really been lead astray making purchases on this method.

So… I’m interested in the measurements for sure, but for me, they can’t totally predict which speaker will “ speak to me” and make me want to open my wallet.

 

[pablolie]

That is how it’s worked out for me in my usual casual sighted listening tests.

I have long given up trying to identify differences between competently designed electronics after they deliver on some basic performance parameters. I spent weeks agonizing whether to keep a Benchmark AHB2 or a NAD M22 amp. It was a silly and unrewarding waste of time. Never again.

Speakers and headphones are about the only things I listen to intently with my fav tracks.

 

[Doodski]

I have long given up trying to identify differences between competently designed electronics after they deliver on some basic performance parameters. I spent weeks agonizing whether to keep a Benchmark AHB2 or a NAD M22 amp. It was a silly and unrewarding waste of time. Never again.

Speakers and headphones are about the only things I listen to intently with my fav tracks.

I am the exact same Pablolie. I seriously attempted differentiating gear that is not different to the human ear. Now I just purchase based on warranty terms, availability, features and cost. I enjoy the gear now and do not obsess over miniscule sound variations.

 

[krabapple]

IM is not measured and evaluated on a regular basis. I would say IM is a parameter to be considered. Back in the day people didn‘t think that smooth directivity with speakers is a primary goal, today it gets emphasized a lot. Perspectives change.

Research happens.

 

[krabapple]

How did we get from DAC filters to speaker preferences?

Indeed, the dodging and weaving has been a sight to see.

But at least , with speakers as the focus, they are talking about things that really do tend to sound different.