Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[antcollinet]

I merely question

Textbook sealioning.

 

[voodooless]

The ultimate metric for a consumer product is sales and profits. So to what extent do their measurements correspond to human preferences expressed in sales figures. I’m merely suggesting that there maybe more factors in play in human preferences that some specific measurements of certain specific aspects don’t fully capture.

Of course. This industry has done it’s best to brainwash their customers for decades that they should use their ears, and in parallel build a massive marketing engine to peddle as much pseudoscientific nonsense about what constitutes good sound as is legally admissible, while paying magazines and later online outlets to peddle their nonsense. And at some point we all fell for it. All of this built an insane amount of bias in preference and perception.

 

[Geert]

I’m not making any claims just questioning how one measured factor correlates to overall preference, the extent to which there are other factors and how do you weigh them.

What "other factors”? Features, form factor, styling, reliability, repairability, ecological footprint, country of origin, cost, availability ... You want scientist to research all of that and make the results publicly available? And is that even audio science, or is it businesses development?

 

[Purité Audio]

Textbook sealioning.

And extremely tedious to boot.
Keith

 

[Newman]

There is no direct link between measurements and enjoyment nor will there ever be. Period.

Except that the available research suggests that, in controlled listening conditions, there are links. Already. Never mind your assertion about the future impossibility, it's already established. er... "Period".

 

[antcollinet]

And extremely tedious to boot.
Keith

And we are all letting him get away with it.

Not me - not anymore. He's gone on ignore.

(EDIT : I seem to be a poet)

 

[Newman]

And we are all letting him get away with it.

Does that include me?

 

[antcollinet]

Does that include me?

Anyone replying to him. That is the whole point of sealioning. To generate engagement, and waste peoples time.

 

[Newman]

Anyone replying to him. That is the whole point of sealioning. To generate engagement, and waste peoples time.

OK sure, in terms of his sealioning. But the only way to deal with that is to ban him, which is only going to happen if the mods agree that he is sealioning ie acting in bad faith. Not easy to prove, hence the success of the tactic.

So far, his protestations that he is acting in good faith, and hence bewildered at the replies directed at him (another tactic that we have seen from bad-faith trolls who ended up being banned), are in complete contradiction to:-

• his posts that do dismiss out of hand the entire field of audio science research (with no apologies when pointed out to him),
• the way he keeps referring to Toole as "one company" even after that error has been pointed out to him. (My understanding is that Amir has made it clear that any disrespectfulness towards audio luminaries who post on ASR will not be tolerated.)
• the way he insists that he is an elite master and professional at assessing the quality of research and yet disses the available research without reading any of it nor the best available plain-language curation of it, and
• the way he immediately closes his curiosity when given a highly dubious answer that seems to align with what he wishes were true.

 

[MAB]

Textbook sealioning.

Yes, this is clear.
I though he was AI at first. So many buzzwords strung together in incoherent fashion.
I'm now leaning towards human, sadly. Terry Pratchett was right.

 

[TTT15]

Of course. This industry has done it’s best to brainwash their customers for decades that they should use their ears, and in parallel build a massive marketing engine to peddle as much pseudoscientific nonsense about what constitutes good sound as is legally admissible, while paying magazines and later online outlets to peddle their nonsense. And at some point we all fell for it. All of this built an insane amount of bias in preference and perception.

 

[solderdude]

Except that the available research suggests that, in controlled listening conditions, there are links. Already. Never mind your assertion about the future impossibility, it's already established. er... "Period".

There are links between signal fidelity and (beyond a certain point) and perceived sound quality in controlled conditions with certain program material.
What Harman research clearly shows is that not everyone prefers the same tonal balance (linear distortion).
Research has been done about the link between metrics like non linear distortion (THD) and perceived sound quality and they clearly have little correlation.
This is program material dependent and there has been a search going on for decades trying to search for a better correlating metric but so far there is none all encompassing metric.

There is no 100% correlation between 'liking/preferring' music on certain gear and measurements.
There is no guarantee that when something measures 'perfect' (regardless of the used metrics) all listeners will enjoy/pefer it simply because of different personal taste.
Maybe... in the future ... one can 'test' one's personal perception and based on that personal outcome an accurate prediction could be made what gear in one's home might be preferred. We are not there yet.

Preference (enjoyment) for something may be for totally different reasons than signal fidelity in which case there isn't a 100% link between 'enjoyment' and signal fidelity.

 

[TTT15]

Im not seeking to dismiss the research at all as I’ve said many times. It is what it is. I’ve no problems with research or measurements per se at all. Quite the contrary I view it as interesting and useful info in the purchasing decision .

I merely question to what extent the various measurements cover all potential aspects relating to an individual’s enjoyment for all particular individuals, for all components, for all systems in all situations. And how can each point be weighted and translated to the overall purchase decision of a consumer good together with other such factors such as price, availability, service, reliability, software,UI, features, aesthetics etc

Just that in the business world I’ve found that specific measurements are fine in themselves but a specific number rarely tell the whole story alone. The world is inevitably more complex especially when there is human interaction.

When every I listen to podcasts on topicsl debates from respected sources there is certain particular aspects that can be researched and known but the topic is still open to debate. Not even Newton, Einstein or Quantum Theory hold universally and are open to further research and question. That is the way science works. So I would be surprised if there were many unquestionable universal truths when it comes to humans enjoyment of HiFi.

HiFi is ultimately a consumer product purchase. The ultimate metric that weights all the various different factors for consumers purchasing preferences mentioned is sales. Without sales there is no HiFi. Therefore manufacturers are ultimately focused on sales. Research and measurements from a particular source may indeed be a good and relevant factor in sales but are unlikely to be the only factor for all manufacturers and consumers Therefore I suspect there isn’t one universal measurement which captures all the factors in the consumer purchasing preference decision. Non of which is to denigrate the research and measurements in themselves.

If some people have an issue with questions in search of better understanding because that is all it is then they are of course at liberty to ignore or just scroll on by. In the outside world awkward questions don’t go away. Others can more helpfully seek to answer the questions if they so wish as they have kindly done. I certainly haven’t seen any research that suggests ad hominem mobbing responses advance the debate or understanding. But then if the objective is to only have one unquestioned point of view from one particular perspective I certainly don’t want to be part of it. I will just continue to go forward with dealers who are open, honest and friendly.

 

[antcollinet]

hence bewildered at the replies directed at him

Also textbook.

But the only way to deal with that is to ban him,

Another way is to turn off the oxygen.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, this is clear.
I though he was AI at first. So many buzzwords strung together in incoherent fashion.
I'm now leaning towards human, sadly. Terry Pratchett was right.

I had to look that one up

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

 

[Heinrich]

tl;dr … thing is, @TTT15 is actually right. Personal preference is the key performance indicator, which is evaluated by the ears of the listener on a solely subjective basis; no measurements involved.

Same as with shoes, there are numbers, but to fit or not to fit, that‘s the question.

Comes out, in practice the measured parameters are typically way way beyond any necessity. The industry was seeking for the best objective figures for distortion for amps, the flattest freq/ response on-axis for speakers, the lowest bass, and that is all wrong, because the selected parameters are useless as long as additional qualities are neglected.

What we clearly can and will agree on is, that falsehood in marketing claims is not to be excused. Fairytales and prices from the moon—would say it‘s criminal.

But to say that the peep-hole view of engineering provides the full picture, wasn‘t wise either. Anyway, I tend to say it‘s good enough, the stereo gear. We need better music now …

 

[solderdude]

Personal preference is the key performance indicator, which is evaluated by the ears of the listener on a solely subjective basis; no measurements involved.

Personal preference will say if one likes the product (regardless what it is).
It says nothing about actual performance.
(Technical) performance is shown by measurements.

Measurements can't 100% predict if someone will 'like' a product.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

which is evaluated by the ears of the listener on a solely subjective basis; no measurements involved.

this would be true for sure if people were listening blind, but we're not, and we're ocularcentric af

 

[JSmith]

Clean measurements is what assists me to "like" a device... then I know my device chain is as transparent as possible. I am then at rest to enjoy the system and the music that ensues.


JSmith

 

[TTT15]

This is the Erin‘s Corner There is no perfect loud speaker video to try to illustrate my current impression. He is not dismissing Toole at all, quite the contrary, merely suggesting that there are inevitably trade offs between different measurements and that there is an element of personal preference. I don’t know if that is true or not but generally in life I see trade offs and preferences so it seems reasonable to me. In addition, I would suggest that there are also other factors like price, aesthetics, features, availability and customer service. iPods and Sonos are popularly preferred by consumers and many would argue they are quite happy with the sound quality. I’m not sure why the perspective that there might not be many absolutes and there might be some nuances and preferences in choosing HiFi is so triggering for some people. That doesn’t seem to be the view of Erin or most ASR participants. The absolutists seem to be in the minority tail of the curve. If some people want an Echo chambers where no questions are allowed then I’m not sure what the point of a forum.