Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[TTT15]

Maths and university studies say sampling rate and filters do make a difference but only at the margins in ideal listening conditions. I certainly can’t perceive a difference on the majority of equipment in the majority of circumstances so any debate is only at the margins which don’t apply to most people in reality.

I’m fine with the advice that measurements are good to consider as to what equipment to include and exclude from consideration but only the individual can decide what they personally enjoy and prefer. I also don’t have any issue if someone just buys on measurements. I’m lucky enough to have a opportunity to listen to a wide selection but not all equipment and others simply won’t have that geographical access. On the other hand I also don’t see enjoying vinyl or tubes as a crime against humanity.

 

[JSmith]

On the other hand I also don’t see enjoying vinyl or tubes as a crime against humanity.

Of course it isn't... many ASR members enjoy vinyl (myself included) and tube amps. However they are realistic about the limitations and fidelity of same, so literally for enjoyment and/or nostalgia.


JSmith

 

[TTT15]

Exactly and for me it’s all about enjoyment and there is no measurement for that.

 

[Mart68]

Maths and university studies say sampling rate and filters do make a difference but only at the margins in ideal listening conditions. I certainly can’t perceive a difference on the majority of equipment in the majority of circumstances so any debate is only at the margins which don’t apply to most people in reality.

Sampling rate higher than 44.1 really doesn't make a difference to playback in any real world scenario so that can be disregarded, filters are at the margins if they have enough top end roll off which is rare but not unknown.

As usual most people who are confident they can hear the effect of different ones do not do the comparison blind and so know which filter is in use which helps them enormously.

As far as poorly measuring electronics go, they have to be very poor before their issues become audible let alone a problem. If they are bad enough some recordings will become unpleasant to listen to. There's not much enjoyment in having 25 percent of your recordings sounding rough and harsh.

Speakers do not have to be so bad before their problems become audible, if they are bad enough again some recordings start to sound bad or just 'wrong,'

Bear in mind that owners of bad speakers do not tend to blame the speakers which are often expensive, well-reviewed and have a back story that seems convincing to the technically unaware, but instead blame the recordings. In other words, they don't like their speakers, they just don't realise it or won't accept they are the problem.

These things matter to enjoyment so whilst there's no direct metric for enjoyment we can see how measurements do indirectly relate to the quality of the experience.

 

[TTT15]

Yes agreed I understand in theory that there is enough info in a 44 kHz sample rate to perfectly reproduce the original recorded soundwave but the maths say you need an infinite sinc function to perfectly reproduce the original sound wave which obviously isnt possible in practice which is where the reproduction can have an impact in principle in ideal listening conditions.

I also completely agree that recording, master, speakers and headphones make a much larger difference. So for sure measurements are useful in helping us decide what we might or might not enjoy but there is no measurement that captures what an individual most enjoys. For me aesthetics, features, reliability, useability, service, UI, software also contribute to my enjoyment. There is no joy coming from something that doesn’t work, doesn’t fit, and is not good to use and there are no measurements of those critical factors.

To be honest I lost interest in music and HiFi until stumbled into Sonos and Apple Music with their ease of use and good UI and only then have I taken an interest again in sound quality and how do I go about putting together a new system most effectively. Each to their own.

 

[Jim Taylor]

On the other hand I also don’t see enjoying vinyl or tubes as a crime against humanity.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying whatever it is that you enjoy. The "crime against humanity" (I like your hyperbole ) is claiming that vinyl or tubes ... or any historical engineering ... is somehow superior because of magical qualities that are beyond the grasp of science.
I have friends who compete in target matches with cap-and-ball muzzleloaders. They enjoy it tremendously, what with the slower pace, lower cost and the camaraderie. Under no circumstances will they ascribe any "magical" qualities to the results, nor will they describe it as "superior". In fact, if you want to win a target match with such antiquated designs, you must use hard science in order to extract the maximum accuracy possible.

People all over the world can enjoy legacy pursuits, be it horseback riding, living in log homes or collecting antiques. They don't see the need to reject and downgrade science in order to do so. (Of course, I'm not drawing parallels to any particular subjectivist audio site that we know of. )

 

[Purité Audio]

‘The crime against humanity’ is expensive poor measuring equipment marketed as ‘bringing a live orchestra into your room’
Keith

 

[TTT15]

That is not on any list of major issues facing the world that I’ve seen although given the reaction it generates from some people you might get the impression that it is.

 

[voodooless]

That is not on any list of major issues facing the world that I’ve seen although given the reaction it generates from some people you might get the impression that it is.

We should just close the forum then and focus on those things…

 

[Mart68]

That is not on any list of major issues facing the world that I’ve seen although given the reaction it generates from some people you might get the impression that it is.

First world problems are still problems And there's nothing I can do about the wider world anyway. At least having a decent stereo is within my axis of control.

 

[MattHooper]

Then you first have to objectively define “better”.

Exactly. RexrothPigeon had suggested there were objective standards by which we could discern which hi-fi gear was doing its job.

So I was trying to draw out exactly what that would be and how it would be applied.

Maybe the Wilson has so much overpowering bass, that it still sounds like shit. Yes it can do more frequencies, but is it any good at it?

Yep.

Or maybe the Wilson doesn’t have too much overpowering bass, and is quite good in that area, but it still has frequency deviations higher up where the Genelec is more properly linear. So the question keeps coming back, which speaker is objectively “ doing its job” in terms of reproducing the information on the recording?

Never mind other factors. What If I sit 1m in front of the speakers? Is the Wilson still a good idea? What if my wife divorces me when I try to put them in my living room?

Exactly.

The point of the question is to suggest that as much as one might hope, even if you think you have an objective standard for high fidelity, it actually isn’t going to easily solve these questions given all sorts of real world variables. There will be examples in which you could draw reasonable conclusions, and plenty of examples where it seems, we are stuck with some level of arbitrariness.

 

[TTT15]

Of course it doesn’t mean the forum should be closed. Sharing knowledge is positive in my view. just that it doesn’t feature anyway in the list of issues facing the world worth getting agitated about. Some of the causes do.

 

[Newman]

Exactly and for me it’s all about enjoyment and there is no measurement for that.

Really...

 

[solderdude]

I understand in theory that there is enough info in a 44 kHz sample rate to perfectly reproduce the original recorded soundwave but the maths say you need an infinite sinc function to perfectly reproduce the original sound wave which obviously isnt possible in practice which is where the reproduction can have an impact in principle in ideal listening conditions.

No you don't need an infinite sinc function to 'perfectly' reproduce sound waves when we consider sound waves to be audible sound waves and thus limited in BW.

 

[danadam]

No you don't need an infinite sinc function to 'perfectly' reproduce sound waves when we consider sound waves to be audible sound waves and thus limited in BW.

I wonder how many times you'll have to repeat that:

 

[MattHooper]

How is it decided though? What criteria can be used for an objective assessment of which speaker is closer to 'real voices and instruments'?

I’m gonna put aside that rabbit hole for a moment, except to say that it seems to me there could be some level of objective criteria (surely that Wilson speaker, or substitute any of the largest speakers from JBL or wherever, would come and objectively closer to reproducing the sound levels and frequency response of the live Orchestra as captured in the recording than a Bose desktop radio).

But there’s ultimately going to be some fuzzy areas and arbitrariness.

Fidelity to signal is objective, fidelity to someone's idea of 'real' can only ever be subjective.

How does that get us out of the quandary I have cited, in deciding which speaker - Genelec or Wilson - is “objectively” doing the better job reproducing that symphonic recording?

That’s the problem I’m pointing out: you can use terms like objective. But the real world presents variables where even with objective data is not going to immediately tell you an answer - there’s probably going to be some subjectivity or arbitrary in de deciding the answer.

In terms of what can be measured, the Genelec measures “ objectively” more linear than the Wilson, but the Wilson measures
“ objectively” wider bandwidth than the Genelec and is therefore producing some of the recorded signal that is missing in the Genelec presentation. And since it’s a recording of a real Orchestra, doesn’t it make sense to care which speaker can reproduce more of the qualities of the Orchestra? The scale, sound, pressure, dynamics, etc.? So which speaker is objectively doing the better job of reproducing the recording?

 

[Jim Taylor]

How does that get us out of the quandary I have cited, in deciding which speaker - Genelec or Wilson - is “objectively” doing the better job reproducing that symphonic recording?

That’s the problem I’m pointing out: you can use terms like objective. But the real world presents variables where even with objective data is not going to immediately tell you an answer - there’s probably going to be some subjectivity or arbitrary in de deciding the answer.

In terms of what can be measured, the Genelec measures “ objectively” more linear than the Wilson, but the Wilson measures
“ objectively” wider bandwidth than the Genelec and is therefore producing some of the recorded signal that is missing in the Genelec presentation. And since it’s a recording of a real Orchestra, doesn’t it make sense to care which speaker can reproduce more of the qualities of the Orchestra? The scale, sound, pressure, dynamics, etc.? So which speaker is objectively doing the better job of reproducing the recording?

If the bandwidth and max SPL of the recorded performance are within the limits of both speakers, then what difference in capabilities can we detect? Not only that, but if the bandwidth and SPL limits of the speakers are both greater than what the listener can tolerate, does this not also make the point moot?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Of course it isn't... many ASR members enjoy vinyl (myself included) and tube amps. However they are realistic about the limitations and fidelity of same, so literally for enjoyment and/or nostalgia.


JSmith

Yes, I enjoy vinyl and tube amps (I possess and use both), but my affection for them is unrelated to sound quality.

 

[MattHooper]

If the bandwidth and max SPL of the recorded performance are within the limits of both speakers, then what difference in capabilities can we detect? Not only that, but if the bandwidth and SPL limits of the speakers are both greater than what the listener can tolerate, does this not also make the point moot?

All good questions, which help support the point I’m making.

 

[MattHooper]

Yes, I enjoy vinyl and tube amps (I possess and use both), but my affection for them is unrelated to sound quality.

Happy to meet another vinyl and tube amp fan! Same here.

My affection for them both is not related to fidelity to the signal, but it is partially related to my enjoyment of the sound quality