Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Toni Mas]

To be clear, you do not have to justify your speaker choice to anyone with research or anything else - you like what you like, as we all do. But by the same token, the fact that you like what you like does not mean that the research is magically invalid or that it did not produce sound evidence for its findings.

I absolutely agree that as a listener I do not have to justify my choices, whatever they might be based on. I did not pretend either to question the validity of Research works, simply said that the last word is still to be written (especially as far as colorations are concerned) and designers have to do with the current state of the Art, though you might call this Science if prefered. For this reason I also understand that designers do not have necessarily to justify their choices, and if they find customers that like the way their speakers sound, there is simply enough.

 

[Toni Mas]

I'm not positive, but I think the most reliable way to measure under 100Hz is correctly executed ground plane measurements.

Will have to ask the stadium next door to let me in...

 

[Toni Mas]

Honestly, this sounds like a designer trying to have his measurement cake and eat it subjectively (the owner of Harbeth does something similar). Does he provide evidence of these 2-3 db errors?

Assuming there is some truth to the claim, what is the problem more specifically?
1) Would audiophiles neglect a speaker that could be great?
2) Or consider a speaker that might be flawed?
3) Or are measurements so misleading they should not be published?

For speakers, I use measurements as triage. The first triage is unavailable proper measurements. The second is proper measurements that reveal major flaws. So there is only an issue if he is arguing #3 (I don’t think he is, and I do think anyone who does should be treated very skeptically)

I am constantly looking at measurements of loudspeakers components and little of loudspeakers systems, and would say that most curves only give hints of what can expected and cautiously hide the flaws with plenty of tricks ( off topic...) Most factories are on the verge of 3 and beyond..

 

[tmtomh]

I am constantly looking at measurements of loudspeakers components and little of loudspeakers systems, and would say that most curves only give hints of what can expected and cautiously hide the flaws with plenty of tricks ( off topic...) Most factories are on the verge of 3 and beyond..

Measurements of individual drivers outside of an enclosure indeed tell us almost nothing.

So too can manufacturers' published measurements of speakers be of limited use, or even misleading, if they are incomplete, vague, or use excessive smoothing or other "tricks" as you say.

But properly conducted measurements, reported in sufficient detail and visualized in proper ways (sufficient resolution, appropriately scaled axes, and so on), give us a lot more than hints and don't hide flaws or pull tricks.

I'm happy to see more clarity from you on precisely what you're trying to say, but so far it still seems like you're muddying the waters between marketing and measurements to try to make an unsupported argument that measurements are of minimal value. If that's not what you're trying to do, then I'm happy to be corrected (although "that's not what I'm trying to do" would not, by itself, be a statement with any real meaning).

 

[Toni Mas]

Measurements of individual drivers outside of an enclosure indeed tell us almost nothing.

So too can manufacturers' published measurements of speakers be of limited use, or even misleading, if they are incomplete, vague, or use excessive smoothing or other "tricks" as you say.

But properly conducted measurements, reported in sufficient detail and visualized in proper ways (sufficient resolution, appropriately scaled axes, and so on), give us a lot more than hints and don't hide flaws or pull tricks.

I'm happy to see more clarity from you on precisely what you're trying to say, but so far it still seems like you're muddying the waters between marketing and measurements to try to make an unsupported argument that measurements are of minimal value. If that's not what you're trying to do, then I'm happy to be corrected (although "that's not what I'm trying to do" would not, by itself, be a statement with any real meaning).

Not at all, i am constantly making measurements for my personnal use and would never minimize their value. What I am complaining is about misleading measurements, mine included, for mistaken o careless procedures, or because too much attention may be paid to weird details on a curve that have marginal audible impact (example of the ugly breakup modes of most full range drivers), or more serious defects hardly shown by nearfield nor gated measurements like wall cabinet resonances that do color the sound.

 

[Purité Audio]

Resonance is apparent in both the speaker’s FR and its impedance curve.
Keith

 

[Toni Mas]

Resonance is apparent in both the speaker’s FR and its impedance curve.
Keith

Not always, most of the time only a hint of these will be found and if the measurement is not clean enough hard to detect. Even a port resonance is difficult to detect in the gated response at 1 m. This is part of the coloration topic treated long ago in a classical paper by Barlow.

 

[tmtomh]

Not at all, i am constantly making measurements for my personnal use and would never minimize their value. What I am complaining is about misleading measurements, mine included, for mistaken o careless procedures, or because too much attention may be paid to weird details on a curve that have marginal audible impact (example of the ugly breakup modes of most full range drivers), or more serious defects hardly shown by nearfield nor gated measurements like wall cabinet resonances that do color the sound.

Ah, I see - that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for this additional information!

 

[Curvature]

too much attention may be paid to weird details on a curve that have marginal audible impact (example of the ugly breakup modes of most full range drivers)

Claims like this can't be made lightly.

Only speaker I can remember with a full range driver is this one: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/GR Research LGK 2.0/ASR/index_asr.html

The off-axis response, especially in the midrange, is pretty terrible (and complex).

 

[Toni Mas]

Claims like this can't be made lightly.

Only speaker I can remember with a full range driver is this one: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/GR Research LGK 2.0/ASR/index_asr.html

The off-axis response, especially in the midrange, is pretty terrible (and complex).

In those full range cases, It all depends of listenning impressions after audition, response curves of the upper range (break up) in themselves telling nothing at all about sound quality... Some shine, others suck, though presenting similar apparent chaotic disorder... The unit driver implemented by GR is obviously crap... Subjectivity also matters..

 

[kyuu]

In those full range cases, It all depends of listenning impressions after audition, response curves of the upper range (break up) in themselves telling nothing at all about sound quality...

Why do people continually come in here to tell us to ignore the research and trust people's sighted listening impressions? It's incredibly tiresome.

 

[Curvature]

In those full range cases, It all depends of listenning impressions after audition, response curves of the upper range (break up) in themselves telling nothing at all about sound quality... Some shine, others suck, though presenting similar apparent chaotic disorder... The unit driver implemented by GR is obviously crap... Subjectivity also matters..

If you have other relevant examples with data, I would welcome them.

 

[Toni Mas]

Why do people continually come in here to tell us to ignore the research and trust people's sighted listening impressions? It's incredibly tiresome.

Please do not simplify... I do not ignore, just try to understand better, without blindlessly saying yes bwana, thanks you bwana for enlightning my ignorance... What scientific orientation IS all about, or not?

 

[Curvature]

Please do not simplify... I do not ignore, just try to understand without blindlessly saying yes bwana, thanks you bwana for enlightning my ignorance...

There's this concept of "the big other" in psychoanalysis. Comes in to play when someone thinks they are independent, self-sufficient, bwanaless.

 

[Toni Mas]

There's this concept of "the big other" in psychoanalysis. Comes in to play when someone thinks they are independent, self-sufficient, bwanaless.

Off topic, but what psychoanalisis have to see with Science?

 

[Toni Mas]

If you have other relevant examples with data, I would welcome them.

I have given one, Jordan jx92s in a VTL cabinet... Measurements suck, sounds great... An amazing mystery to me, and more enlightning an experience than most politically correct and aproved designs...

Other one... what is the point with launching a driver like this? Will It sound as bad as It looks? Or do you need to apply a 1/1 smoothing to realize that It might be worth testing?

https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/6-inch-SB16FRPC25-7.pdf

Or maybe you prefer this one though you will definitely need a tweeter?

https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/SATORI-MW16P-12.pdf

 

[amirm]

I have given one, Jordan jx92s in a VTL cabinet... Measurements suck, sounds great...

So you say. Your opinion of a speaker is not a fact. To know that is a fact, you need to participate in a controlled listening test where you select that speaker as sounding better than others. When such tests are performed, folks like you fail miserably in providing reliable opinions:

You need to stop.

 

[krabapple]

In those full range cases, It all depends of listenning impressions after audition, response curves of the upper range (break up) in themselves telling nothing at all about sound quality... Some shine, others suck, though presenting similar apparent chaotic disorder... The unit driver implemented by GR is obviously crap... Subjectivity also matters..

Subjective impressions about audio are hugely influence-able by non-audio factors.

(And around and around we go. None of this is news.)

 

[Toni Mas]

Subjective impressions about audio are hugely influence-able by non-audio factors.

(And around and around we go. None of this is news.)

Obviously true, but part of the game...

 

[Toni Mas]

So you say. Your opinion of a speaker is not a fact. To know that is a fact, you need to participate in a controlled listening test where you select that speaker as sounding better than others. When such tests are performed, folks like you fail miserably in providing reliable opinions:

You need to stop.

Facts... I asked this before, do you believe in absolute perfection/truth? I don't... And what do i need It for?