Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[sergeauckland]

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP's view. I've often asked myself the same question. To me, these days facilities are far more important than measured performance, as in pretty much every case, whatever the numbers, it's still Good Enough for transparency.

The value to me of the numbers is to know that indeed the item has been well engineered, or that certain design decisions were taken that make the item best avoided.

S

 

[boxerfan88]

Yeah, true. It’s like R2R often gets trashed here.

R2R when engineered well can be transparent. Both my Soekris & Topping DM7 perform transparently (neutral) to my ears.

 

[respice finem]

For me, as a reluctant buyer, the discussion about a new product reviewed is as important as the review itself.
Some products are good, but not "ripe" (especially their software/firmware).

And, it's no "sin" to have better parameters than needed.

 

[Mart68]

But if I can’t hear it, and we are talking about audio, why point out inaudible but measurable differences?

What gets tested is what gets sent in for testing by the members, and there's a lot of DACs since they are small and light and so cheap to ship. We all know they will clear the bar of audibility except for a handful (ironically, some of the very expensive ones don't).

 

[solderdude]

But if I can’t hear it, and we are talking about audio, why point out inaudible but measurable differences?

With measurements one can show signal fidelity well below any audible thresholds.
Some people want the signal fidelity as good as possible.
Some people want the published specs of manufacturers checked independently.

Audibility thresholds vary from person to person, speaker (headphone) sensitivity differs.
This means in some cases noise could become an audible 'issue'.
Volume control L-R matching can become an issue. It is measurable and while it may vary from copy to copy it says something about audibility.
Sometimes use cases differ (the way equipment is used) and that may matter requiring higher specs in order to guarantee 'perfect enough' reproduction.

For this measurements should be revealing enough so that one can even show performance in the rarest applications.
Situations requiring better performance than 'the average user' needs or can hear.

Some aspects are not measured that could well be an audible issue so there's that too.
Also longevity aspects, service after many years, feel of operation etc. aren't reviewed.

Now we enter perception... the human factor. Some people actually can hear things that don't stand out to others. Usually until it is pointed out and after that can't un-hear it. training (intentionally or simply experience).

To properly link perception to measurements is tricky business but of coarse can be done using appropriate listening tests and testing.

The problem here is that most people (aside from a handful of ASR members) simply do not test this way. They just connect devices and listen. There is a great disconnect between technical performance and perception for a myriad of reasons.
Measurements will show the technical performance only and not perception.
Audibility thresholds differ, tastes differ, applications differ, even the quality of measurements can differ.

So... test everything, report what is relevant and you can get a gauge of technical performance in the lab (not necessarily in one's home) regardless of audibility thresholds/hearing.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I have read many reviews of various products and I appreciate the objectivety of the measurements being made. But many times after reading a very long review with a lot of technical info that s above my head, it is revealed that to the extent that the piece of equipment being reviewed does’t measure up”, the short comings aren’t audible. I will let some one out there come up with the logical response.

This is the beauty of objective testing: you can constrain your assessment solely to the objective data and ignore the subjective part as you wish. For example, if a piece of equipment measures to your satisfaction but the reviewer says it "doesn't measure up," you can happily disregard that subjective commentary.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I have read many reviews of various products and I appreciate the objectivety of the measurements being made. But many times after reading a very long review with a lot of technical info that s above my head, it is revealed that to the extent that the piece of equipment being reviewed does’t measure up”, the short comings aren’t audible. I will let some one out there come up with the logical response.

At room temperature, all electronic devices are noisy, but competent design can push the noise to below our ability to hear it. Really low noise is difficult to achieve, so it points to a design team who have good understanding and also a competent manufacturer.

Given modern understanding, a device which has a flaw which others don't have, even if that flaw is probably inaudible, may point to poorer manufacturing quality, limited understanding of state of the art, or a deliberate design compromise.

As a buyer, knowing this can help me select a vendor or product.

 

[DanielT]

I have read many reviews of various products and I appreciate the objectivety of the measurements being made. But many times after reading a very long review with a lot of technical info that s above my head, it is revealed that to the extent that the piece of equipment being reviewed does’t measure up”, the short comings aren’t audible. I will let some one out there come up with the logical response.

Everything related to mechanics and or electronics in Hifi, I can learn more about as a happy amateur. Some things are more difficult than others but it is possible to learn with curiosity. It also gives knowledge how to interpret measurements and with that knowledge also insight into what is of interest. For example, the level of audible or not as a test shows regarding SINAD.
For speakers, I think in principle everything is worth learning regarding measurements because in principle everything that is reported, differences, is or can be audible.

...technical info that s above my head..
Are you like me. That is, that things regarding data is not our strong point? Maybe you are a master at IT/data, software and so on. I don't know.

In any case, for me everything regarding data and Hifi becomes a challenge. For example, I read about DSP in the thread below. About what FIR and IIR filters are, among other things. I don't know, it may not be super difficult but it is kind of a mental block I have that means that the information doesn't really want to enter my brain. Or, I could just be stupid, which is a simpler explanation.

There is something about that data hifi combination which is difficult for me to understand. Of course I see the enormous potential in the development of data/IT and what great advantages it has given for hifi and music (streaming)listening. I don't want to be without that. It's just a little hard to understand how it works:

Keith_W:...This is a complex topic with a lot to say,...

'Understanding the state of the DSP market'

Apr 20, 2025

I thought I would make a public service post about DSP, because I have noticed that many people don't seem to understand it. I hope this post helps you understand what a DSP product offers you, what the advantages and disadvantages are, and ultimately help you choose what you want or need. This is a complex topic with a lot to say, and I have to keep it brief so that it fits in a forum post and can be easily understood by a general audience. So I am sure I will be criticised for not making certain points by the usually tough ASR crowd. To those people I say: screw you, write your own DSP...

• Keith_W
• Replies: 468
• Forum: DACs, Streamers, Servers, Players, Audio Interface

• 

Not much more knowledge stuck after I read this thread below.Note that this is about the Fundamental. Basic in other words. Basic for whom?:

The Complete Guide to FIR Filters for Audio Optimization

Learn about fundamental FIR filter concepts & the benefits of using FIR filters for loudspeakers & other audio applications.

eclipseaudio.com

FIR filters require a lot of computing power and can create latency problems, that's about all I understood. You don't want too much signal latency between, for example, sub-speakers.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

About what FIR and IIR filters are, among other things. I don't know, it may not be super difficult but it is kind of a mental block I have that means that the information doesn't really want to enter my brain

Before getting into FIR Vs IIR it's useful to grasp linear Vs minimum phase.

When you make a change to the frequency response for example by blocking DC or having a roll off at high frequencies, you change the phase of the signals. So phase changes are inevitable in a bandwidth-limited system.

 

[coonmanx]

In the end, just like everything else in this world, a person needs to do their own research and make decisions based on the information that they find. It's just information. If you think that a certain bit of information is not important then so be it. It's your money and your choice. Just view this site as a reservoir of information.

 

[TTT15]

Totally agree. ASR has some very good information but it is always good practice to read around and talk to different people on any topic to avoid the risk of confirmation, anchoring, over confidence and group think biases which you see everywhere.

Ultimately it’s only the individual who has to spend the money and listen to the music so others people’s opinions are irrelevant at the end of the day. Personally I would not buy anything just based on measurements or anyone else’s opinion. It’s certainly worth checking measurements but ultimately you have to listen for yourself. As one of my favourite dealer said to me there isn’t better in HiFi just individual preferences so you have to decide for yourself

 

[Cbdb2]

I look at measurements first and seperate the ones that meet the minimum spec for audibility. Than the work starts. Features, reliability, cost, appearance, ease of use, bugs, WAF etc.
With modern electronics the measurements are usually the least of your concerns.

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve said before that one reason I like seeing measurements is for high end amplifiers, especially tube amplifiers. All these amplifiers come with their manufacturer technical story, and they almost always involved all the steps they’ve taken to reduce distortion, increase the purity of the signal,
“ to get you closer to the music.”

I just happened upon an old Michael Fremer review of the Wavac 833 single ended tube mono blocks. Even back in 2004 at the time of the review they cost $350,000.

And of course they came with the technical story of heroic transformer windings, pure silver this and that, every stage of the app chosen to reduce distortion, etc. The main selling point was that it was a single ended tube amp with a power rating of 150 W!

And when John Atkinson measured his power output, how much did it actually output (at 1% THD)?

2 watts.

A $350,000 amplifier advertised at 150 W…. only put out 2 W.

Atkinson had to relax the criteria to 10% THD before the amp hit its 150w rating.

Pretty wild.

Overall, in all sorts of respect, the amp measured pretty crazy;

Wavac SH-833 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements "Perhaps I should just measure one of the amplifiers," I said, eyeing the eight chassis that comprise a pair of the Wavac SH-833 monoblocks, all of them sitting at the business end of Mikey's room. Even so, as neighbor Wes Phillips and I manhandled the 550 lbs of...

www.stereophile.com

(And the measurements - boost in the bass, roll-off in the highs - also make some sense of Fremer’s subjective descriptions of the same).

 

[MarkS]

Of course Fremer loved it: "I doubt you'll hear an amplifier that delivers the effervescence, transparency, and solidity of live music—all kinds of live music—as convincingly and effectively as does the Wavac SH-833."

 

[MattHooper]

Of course Fremer loved it: "I doubt you'll hear an amplifier that delivers the effervescence, transparency, and solidity of live music—all kinds of live music—as convincingly and effectively as does the Wavac SH-833."

Yeah, Fremer has a number of times talked about having his “ pants pulled down in public” by the measurement of some of the tube amplifiers he has reviewed favourably.

On the other hand, I don’t doubt that the amplifiers could’ve interacted with his speakers in a way that he found extremely pleasing. Apparently guests agreed.

Many years ago, I had a local guy who is obsessed with building tube amplifiers build me a fairly low powered tube amp. As I remember it was something like 28 W and he had some “ audio purist” ideas… I think it was very little feedback that type of stuff.

It sounded distinctly coloured. And didn’t quite work on all music. But man, oh man could it sound unbelievable on the right music with a few of my loudspeakers. I remember my brother who had heard plenty of my systems sitting down for a listen on one musical pairing and turning to me saying “ I’ve never heard music reproduction like that before.” I also had a speaker manufacturer drop by who was very vocal about tube amps being ridiculous, outdated, nobody should be buying them…
So I sat him down and said take a listen to this. And after a couple of tracks he too had a look of amazement on his face and made a remark along the lines of what he just heard was like the pinnacle of stereo sound - basically what you want to experience when you sit down in front of a system. I don’t think he went out and bought a tube amplifier, but he had his eyes opened somewhat.

Personally, I am a believer…in some cases…of such system synergy.

 

[MarkS]

Apparently guests agreed.

And his wife in the kitchen, no doubt.

Yes, tube distortion can sound euphonic. Film at 11! *

* For our younger members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_at_11

 

[MattHooper]

And his wife in the kitchen, no doubt.

Yes, tube distortion can sound euphonic. Film at 11! *

* For our younger members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_at_11

I’m fine with reviewers, including comments from other listeners to the system. In fact, I enjoy it and I think it adds colour to the review. But then again…. I don’t think subjective reviews, and this kind of stuff is the work of the devil

If Fremer’s wife had an interesting reaction, I’d be fine reading about that too.

My wife could not be less interested in high-end audio and is normally impossible to get her to sit and listen. But one system I had years ago she thought sounded quite nice from outside the room, and I actually got her to sit and listen to a track or two of some of her favourite Sarah McLachlan songs - which sounded astoundingly life like on the system - and by the end she was in tears. I’ve never seen her even close to being driven to tears, listening to music before. I think that said something interesting and significant about her encounter with music re-created with that level of sound quality. The same happened with my mother with another system I was reviewing. Brought to tears. Never ever seen that before and her. I find that kind of stuff fascinating. But then, for me, I’m fascinated with subjective experiences like that.

 

[posvibes]

Brought to tears.

I had the exact same experience, but I couldn't help the nagging suspicion that both my wife's and mother's tears were from a sense of quiet desperation and disappointment in me and my hobby.

 

[MattHooper]

I had the exact same experience, but I couldn't help the nagging suspicion that both my wife's and mother's tears were from a sense of quiet desperation and disappointment in me and my hobby.

That possibility can never be ruled out.



eta: on that note, here is a wonderful blog detailing the pains of being an audiophile’s wife:

The Audiophile's Wife

A gathering place for the victims of sound.

www.theaudiophileswife.com

 

[Purité Audio]

Even the most technically incompatible amplifier/loudspeaker combination will still make a ‘noise’.
Keith