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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Please state the specific claim.
What you wrote:

Claim #1: "people are universally consistent in their preference for sound reproduction that delivers an initial sound wave, the so-called direct or first arrival sound, that has a flat, smooth and extended frequency response in the audible band" [underlining added]

Claim #2: "The only exception being people with significant hearing damage" [italics in original]
 
Perhaps you could avail yourself of the actual science on preference in sound reproduction, instead of point scoring over silly hypotheticals involving amps that, if competently designed for a flat frequency response and applied in a situation where they won't 'run out of power', simply won't be able to be distinguished by any percent, never mind 70 percent.

Well, if the results of hypothetical double blind test is that 70% prefer amp A, then amp B clearly isn't competently designed...why is that silly or impossible?
 
@Chagall, I don't understand your question. What controlled, real amp listening comparison would ever reveal a 70/30 split?
 
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No. It is not an average. It is the curve preferred by 64% of the listeners in the tests. If you say it is an average, what is it an average of, and what is the standard deviation?

View attachment 473117

I believe that's just a fact stated about the curve, not how it was arrived at in the first place (which I think is what @danadam was alluding to).

BTW, just 64% is pretty damning and shows how feeble this body research really is. It's more than half, but not even two thirds. I wonder what the other third and a bit would prefer instead of the Harman curve?
 
I believe that's just a fact stated about the curve, not how it was arrived at in the first place (which I think is what @danadam was alluding to).

BTW, just 64% is pretty damning and shows how feeble this body research really is. It's more than half, but not even two thirds. I wonder what the other third and a bit would prefer instead of the Harman curve?
I’m trying to think of things that 64% of people would prefer.
Chocolate vs vanilla.
Velvia vs. Lumiere
Two compositions of my favorite song.
Mars vs. Almond Joy.
Coke vs. Pepsi.

But seriously, I wonder. Is 64% really low?
 
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"different" to a skilled AB/X listener, is a very, very small difference. In a 5 to 10 second test using selected tracks, the only only descriptive word is different.
Nothing like the differences in audiophile reviews.
A five to ten second selection of music using "selected tracks" is not a proper means of testing, IMHO. The person submitting to the test should be allowed to provide the test material of their choosing and listen to those selections for as long as they want. Doing it any other way can skew the test results toward whatever outcome is desired through the selection of material that has been predetermined to give the desired result.
 
A five to ten second selection of music using "selected tracks" is not a proper means of testing, IMHO. The person submitting to the test should be allowed to provide the test material of their choosing and listen to those selections for as long as they want. Doing it any other way can skew the test results toward whatever outcome is desired through the selection of material that has been predetermined to give the desired result.
In general users can take as long as they like. But the finding has been that the ability to discern is maximal with 5 to 10 seconds, so that is the one referred to. If detection is not happening at that interval, it won't start happening at some other interval.
 
What you wrote:

Claim #1: "people are universally consistent in their preference for sound reproduction that delivers an initial sound wave, the so-called direct or first arrival sound, that has a flat, smooth and extended frequency response in the audible band" [underlining added]

Claim #2: "The only exception being people with significant hearing damage"
OK I will have a dig around, but I don't keep indexed references, so don't hold your breath. As to #2, Toole shows how people with hearing damage lose their consistency, so I have to exclude them from Claim #1, which is a claim of consistency.

My post below speaks to the same issue, though.

cheers
 
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[re Harman headphone curve] It is not an average. It is the curve preferred by 64% of the listeners in the tests. ...
...BTW, just 64% is pretty damning and shows how feeble this body research really is. It's more than half, but not even two thirds. I wonder what the other third and a bit would prefer instead of the Harman curve?
I have discussed this on page 271 of this thread.

In a nutshell, 100% of listeners prefer the Harman Curve to within 1 dB above 300 Hz, but below 300 Hz listeners split into 3 preference groups: 64% prefer the Curve within 2 dB, 21% prefer the Curve modified to -2 dB to -3 dB of bass, and 15% prefer the Curve modified to +3 dB to +6 dB of bass.

The underlined bit IMO is extremely important and gives a clue to how little human preference varies for sound quality in general. And even in the bass it’s the same curve, with tweaks to the level (not to the shape), and 100% of listeners fall into one of the 3 tweaks. IMO overall the message is one of remarkably high consistency in preferences: one only needs to ask a person if he or she is a bit averse to bass, or a bit crazy about bass, or neither, and you can pretty much hand him or her the target curve to look for in headphones. Wow. Even easier, just hand them the standard Harman Curve 100% of the time, and say there is a 1 in 3 chance they might want to apply a bass shelf of plus or minus a few dB to taste. Wow wow. No wonder Dr Toole describes us as stable and consistent measuring instruments.

cheers
 
Interesting.
a. Bass Heads
b. Neutral Heads
c. No Boom Boom Heads
:)
 
In general users can take as long as they like. But the finding has been that the ability to discern is maximal with 5 to 10 seconds, so that is the one referred to. If detection is not happening at that interval, it won't start happening at some other interval.
This is wrong. Sometimes, even with familiar material, it can take several sessions, sometimes over several days.
 
This is wrong. Sometimes, even with familiar material, it can take several sessions, sometimes over several days.
I think you are referring to sighted listening, aka casual listening, aka uncontrolled listening, which allows non-sonic factors to dominate and give us deluded impressions that we are hearing things in the sound waves that are not actually detectable.

If you restrict the listening to controlled conditions, so only the sound waves themselves can influence our sonic impressions, then 5-10 seconds is the peak for detection. Proven.

cheers
 
I think you are referring to sighted listening, aka casual listening, aka uncontrolled listening, which allows non-sonic factors to dominate and give us deluded impressions that we are hearing things in the sound waves that are not actually detectable.

If you restrict the listening to controlled conditions, so only the sound waves themselves can influence our sonic impressions, then 5-10 seconds is the peak for detection. Proven.

cheers
Tell you what... come to my house, my gear and my music. I will give you the ability to set the test up any way you like. I will be able to tell the difference between amps, DAC's, CD vs. streaming vs. CD rips on my hard drive.
 
Tell you what... come to my house, my gear and my music. I will give you the ability to set the test up any way you like. I will be able to tell the difference between amps, DAC's, CD vs. streaming vs. CD rips on my hard drive.
You really are quite the beginner. No shame in that, but it would help if you show that you are listening.

Amps sound different when their frequency responses (connected to your speakers and measured at the speaker terminals) differ by an amount that exceeds the commonly understood thresholds of human detection, or when the output levels are not matched. So, if you think we are saying here that they all sound the same no matter what, then you are not paying attention.

DACs sound different when their frequency responses (connected to your amps and measured at the amp terminals) differ by an amount that exceeds the commonly understood thresholds of human detection, or when the output levels are not matched. So, if you think we are saying here that they all sound the same no matter what, then you are not paying attention.

CD vs streaming sound different when the playback device frequency responses (connected to your amps and measured at the amp terminals) differ by an amount that exceeds the commonly understood thresholds of human detection, or when the output levels are not matched, or when playing different recording masters. So, if you think we are saying here that they all sound the same no matter what, then you are not paying attention.

CD vs rip of same CD will not sound different if the rip is bit perfect, unless their frequency responses (connected to your amps and measured at the amp terminals) differ by an amount that exceeds the commonly understood thresholds of human detection, or when the output levels are not matched. So, if you think we are saying here that they all sound the same no matter what, then you are not paying attention.

So, have you done all those measurements? Checked all those levels? Publish them here. No point in my coming around without them, only to find that I can tell from the measurements that they should sound different.

cheers
 
CD vs streaming sound different when the playback device frequency responses (connected to your amps and measured at the amp terminals) differ by an amount that exceeds the commonly understood thresholds of human detection, or when the output levels are not matched, or when playing different recording masters. So, if you think we are saying here that they all sound the same no matter what, then you are not paying attention.
I'd also like to make the point that with streaming you are never quite sure exactly what your listening to, what mastering, etc etc.
I don't know of any streamer that includes meta data detailing what they are streaming to us?
 
Goryu, measurements don't tell you what you like, but it can accurately describes something so you can make your own judgement. If you prefer speakers that exaggerate low frequencies, looking at speaker measurements will tell you that. It's been shown over and over again humans are not reliable in describing sound. A consumer is best served by 1) understanding his own preference, and 2) understanding how gear is measured and what those measurements mean

I can like equipment on an intellectual level that produces the least amount of distortion to the input signal.
 
I will be able to tell the difference between, CD vs. CD rips on my hard drive.
Really? Have you tried that? I've done that blind test - absolutely no chance of reliably spotting a difference and very much doubt anyone could unless there was something badly wrong with the streamer.

It's easy to be very confident about your powers of discernment until you actually test them. Then you realise just how much of a supporting crutch knowing what device you are listening to actually is and just how ludicrous the claims that are routinely made by some people actually are.
 
in my opinion, and it is just that, science can only go so far. There needs to be room for subjective evaluation as well. Science cannot explain everything. There has been equipment reviewed on this very site that was never listened to outside of what could be heard on the workbench. There have been speakers reviewed with just one speaker instead of the stereo pair, or not set up to the manufacturer‘s suggestions, simply because the measurements taken did not look good on a scope.

Audio gear is not designed or made to be listened to on a test bench. The acoustics of the room, everything from the floors to the ceiling, the shape of the room, and everything within that space all play a part in what we hear. This is why millions of dollars are spent designing concert halls for their acoustic environment. Just like the instruments our audio systems are trying to reproduce, so to our gear reads the room and responds accordingly. How can this be measured on a workbench?

I have purchased gear based on specs alone, and much of that gear was returned because within my listening space, it sounded like crap. Other times, the built quality was very poor, regardless of the price point. I know this site worships at the altar of the scientific measurement, but science alone does not and cannot explain all about what and how we hear what we do. According to many on this forum, based on science alone, my system should sound like complete shit, but the facts are just the opposite of that. My stereo rig consists of a pair of home-built Carver Ravens, Simaudio Moon 680d DAC, McIntosh C2300 preamp, Oppo UDP-203 universal player and top range Audioquest cables, including WEL interconnects and Diamond USB cables, feeding a pair of Polk Audio Legend L800’s.This setup started off with some of the components that came highly recommended on this site, but in my home and to what matters most, my ears, they failed to engage me with music in the manner the artists and performers intended. Measurements alone tend to suck the soul out of the sound. Each of the components in my rig delivers a piece of that, and combined as a whole, the illusion of a solo performance just for you is delivered every time I sit down to listen.

I have observed some talk on this forum that ASR may become the target of a lawsuit or two… I do know that at the most recent audio meet, ASR was the talk of the show among vendors and the many companies who’s gear that were at the event. I sense that some form of suit is coming. An example reason as to why would be that a certain piece of gear that receives accolades from around the world for whatever reason comes to these pages for a review, where it is summarily trashed, with testing methods that are not in any way used by the makers of said product. It goes on to be proclaimed a “headless panther”(how mature does that sound anyway). Over time the sales of that product are severely affected, dwindling to a halt. Many big companies can take a fail or two, but others are not built that way, and such damage can actually harm the business.

ASR is likely the primary reason the Bob Carver Company was forced to close their doors. The damage done to the company and to Bob‘s reputation by this site is nothing short of astonishing. Carver is not the only company harmed by the manner in which ASR conducts their reviews. I will not name any other brands that have been harmed, but there are perhaps a dozen or so looking to work together to stop what happens here. Cease and desist letters are being drawn up. Some are looking to bring slander suits, and other looking at other avenues to peruse on their own.

I like the community here and believe there is a benefit ASR and its continued existence, however, I strongly suggest that reviewing of equipment change in such a way as to allow a manufacturer to see pre-published results and address them in some manner before publication. With regards to Carver and the ubiquitous 275 fiasco, a simple phone call or two would have revealed that the new ownership was acutely aware there was an issue, that it was being addressed, and that the procedures used to test the amp were not correct to start with. While it would not have improved the results much, it would have tested a bit better, and ASR would have been informed that the fix was coming and the company actually cared about doing better going forward. This could have been highlighted within the review and much of the vitriol that followed could have been mitigated. Such a step would eliminate the potential for possible consequences that can result from a legal perspective, and in this case, could have possibly created enough good will between Carver and ASR that the company could have survived.

Another point… it is one thing to discuss a poorly reviewed piece of equipment, and entirety something else to go on a campaign of character assassination. Rules should be put in place to confine discourse to the specific piece of gear, and not pass judgments on the character of the man that built it, or the company itself. To do so is BEGGING to be sued. Remember guys, this is only a hobby. It is not something for which there is only one right way of doing things. Even brain surgeons are more flexible in their views than this place tends to be. Can we all just lighten up and enjoy the music, while helping each other, scientifically and objectively?

Hi @john2017, have the cease and desist letters been sent yet? Any movement on the slander lawsuits? It's been over a year now.
 
Hi @john2017, have the cease and desist letters been sent yet? Any movement on the slander lawsuits? It's been over a year now.
I have had him on ignore. Did he turn out to be from Tektron or something?
 
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