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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

That's just it, it isn't an indication of anything, if they had followed through and got the same result that would mean something, and the science and engineering would have a chance to advance. But as it is it's just another valueless data point, anything else is just an appeal to authority.
I admit that I think they dropped the ball not following through. But I don't quite agree. A blind test may still be compromized by ques from the test leader, but less likely to be compromized than a fully sighted test. Alas; there is a chance that the result is an indication of reality. As to appeal to authority: yes to a degree. But in this case I'd say it is just more likely that people that you know have the comperence and resources to carry out a meaningful test will do so than some random person. Can you tell by the available measurement data that the device in question without a doubt is undetectable by human hearing? No you can not. You may find that there is nothing in the measurement results that would suggest that it should be detected. Yet, claims like the former is tossed around freely.
 
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Can you suggest to him, a look at ASR, before he spends any more?
I think that for many owners-buyers of snake oil it's too hard or almost impossible to face the truth: (being told) that their expensive stuff has no technical merit. They can experience that as insulting or offending.

It makes me think of what psychologists tend to say about how to cope with relatives or friends that do not trust covid vaccins or even believe complot theories, etc., that it's often best to try to listen and understand why the other believes such things. Of course this is different as well, it's also a temptation, reading a reviewer's 'testimony' of 'how suddenly the emotion is coveyed, like a veil is lifted' And yes, the believer hears it, he is temporary freed of his doubt.
 
Adapting low resolution upon higher resolution physical pixels doesn’t produce artifact

Not on small screens, and you'd live with worse every day on your laptop or typical HD screen.

I have a 32 inch 4k monitor... exectly the same. resolution my 6.someyhing S23 ultra is capable. off.

I don’t know the process, but I’m mentally happy when source file is at an entire multiple of the resolution, as for example playing 1080p in a 1080p screen or 720p in a 1440p one…

Agree on your opinion, even 20/20 people cannot solve more than 400 ppi at 15 cm, and often they neglect screen quality in their workplace.

Last weeks I realized I’m very sensitive to flickering screens, I can read for hours on my ipad mini (lcd IPS 326 ppi), but my OLED iphone gives me crazy even with bigger fonts and 460 ppi, infinite contrast and so forth… apparently the diffraction is the pulse width modulation technique for dimming used in OLED panels.
 
Not on small screens, and you'd live with worse every day on your laptop or typical HD screen.

I have a 32 inch 4k monitor... exectly the same. resolution my 6.someyhing S23 ultra is capable. off.
I also purchased a 32 inch 4k monitor: it arrives tomorrow :cool:

I’m hurry to connect my WiiM Ultra by HDMI arc and watch a 4k opera when listening in my Genelecs, then I will consider my home desktop a friendly place …

I imagined the screen of a smartphone is too small to perceive the adaptation.

Personally I’m trying to avoid as possible the smartphones, the posture and the excessive eyes convergence is not very funny to the neck and the accommodation mechanism. Also there are full of social networks that try to capture attention just to throw publicity, I’m beginning to develop an addiction syndrome…

Whit my computer I felt less harassed by socials, and ergonomic is waaaay better.
 
Can you tell by the available measurement data that the device in question without a doubt is undetectable by human hearing? No you can not. You may find that there is nothing in the measurement results that would suggest that it should be detected. Yet, claims like the former is tossed around freely.

If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Available measuring devices are much more sensitive and accurate than human hearing.
 
If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Available measuring devices are much more sensitive and accurate than human hearing.
No argument there. But just because it can be measured does not imply that it has been. I would like to point out that I'm "speaking" in general terms here. Suites of tests are rarely 100% complete. Sometimes because you just failed to see the relevance or out of practicality. Test data also need to be interpreted and matched with implementations to be useful. Very relevant basic things to state clearly along with plots and measurements (that people use to make bold claims) that sometimes are done so-so: measurement bandwidth, used weighting or lack thereof, RBW, test signal description, DUT load, descriptions of potential filters in the signal chain ... again, speaking in general terms and not pointing my finger anywhere in particular. I know for a fact that the details presented and what tests are run on this site have evolved since the beginning. No less certain were the claims in posts back then and I am sure we will see more tests be added/changed/re-evaluated/debated as time goes. I am 100% for evaluation using measurements as its core, don't get me wrong, but...
 
If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Available measuring devices are much more sensitive and accurate than human hearing.
There's that religion again.
Why so much faith in meters and so little trust in human hearing?

I have tinnitus. No physician would insist that I don't--yet it can't be measured and science doesn't know what causes it. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
 
No argument there. But just because it can be measured does not imply that it has been. I would like to point out that I'm "speaking" in general terms here. Suites of tests are rarely 100% complete. Sometimes because you just failed to see the relevance or out of practicality. Test data also need to be interpreted and matched with implementations to be useful. Very relevant basic things to state clearly along with plots and measurements (that people use to make bold claims) that sometimes are done so-so: measurement bandwidth, used weighting or lack thereof, RBW, test signal description, DUT load, descriptions of potential filters in the signal chain ... again, speaking in general terms and not pointing my finger anywhere in particular. I know for a fact that the details presented and what tests are run on this site have evolved since the beginning. No less certain were the claims in posts back then and I am sure we will see more tests be added/changed/re-evaluated/debated as time goes. I am 100% for evaluation using measurements as its core, don't get me wrong, but...
Yet we (the class of engineers) have been measuring audio devices for over 100 years. There have also been numerous studies regarding audibility of the different characteristics of sound.

So it's pretty much understood now how to measure everything important for human hearing.

There is only frequency response, noise, and distortion, and we can measure those to an accuracy far greater than human hearing. We have a good understanding of the levels of those things the human ear is capable of detecting. So when a device measures below those levels we know it doesn’t have a "sound"

And here is - for me convincing - evidence that what we are measuring is sufficient:

If we have it wrong, it is fairly easy for you (or anyone) to prove - by a properly executed blind test - that you can hear a difference when the measurements say you can't. But despite all the motivation from 1000's of outraged audiophiles, and, even more so 100's of invested manufacturers who would love to be able to demonstrate how much better their products sound - so far no-one has been able to do so.
 
Why so much faith in meters and so little trust in human hearing?
Because it is known - without a shadow of a doubt - that human hearing is unreliable: It's subject to perceptive biases. Our unconscious brain literally changes the information coming from the ear before our conscious brain "hears" it. If it didn't we would be unable to function.


I have tinnitus. No physician would insist that I don't--yet it can't be measured and science doesn't know what causes it. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
Exactly - most likely your tinnitus (like mine) is a function primarily of your brain, responding to faulty (or lack of) signalling from the ear due to hearing loss or damage. There is no signal reaching your ear that creates your tinnitus. Your tinnitus only demonstrates the fallibility of the auditory system, not its acuity. You hear stuff that is not there.


Detail (read or ignore - up to you):
one of the aspects of being human is having a brain that acts as a prediction machine. All those optical illusions you’ve seen, or the auditory illusions you've heard : They're the result of your brain making stuff up from imperfect senses bringing in imperfect information.

See that 3D world all around you as you look around? That perception exists only in your brain. It is built from the ground up based on two tiny blurry and with a blind spot right in the middle images projected onto your retina. I think it is almost miraculous how the brain manages to create that perception for you.

Now without moving your head, picture the stuff that is behind you. You can actually build that into your perception of the world even when not looking at it. It is not coming from any of your senses - it is simply a prediction from your brain based on what you've seen in the past.

Ever been walking down a path in woodland and seen a person up ahead that turns into (e.g.) a tree stump when you get closer - that's your brain predicting.

Ever heard someone say something, and then they deny they've even opened their mouth - brain prediction.

This is happening all the time. Our brain is continuously making pretty good predictions based on imperfect information - we couldn't function if it didn't. Sometimes though it gets the predictions wrong. And it is multi-sensory. It can alter sound based on what you see, or change what you see based on what you hear. Or how we feel, or what we've imbibed, or how comfortable we are, or if we are in unfamiliar surroundings.

It is well known that we will hear differences between audio devices even when there is no difference in the sound reaching our ears. We've all experienced it. In fact we all experience it all the time. Ever sat down to listen to music to find your system doesn't impress you the way it normally does - or on this day it suddenly sounds sublime. The system hasn't changed, you have : your perceptions have.

Your subjective listening can be evidence, but it has to be controlled (eg accurately level matched) and blind (so that you don't know what device is playing), and you have to be able to consistently detect the difference (at least 9 out of 10 times). With this control we can be certain that your biases are not influencing the result.

Without that level of rigour, then your subjective experience is nothing more than anecdote and tells us nothing about what actual physical differences there may (or may not) have been.
 
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Yet we (the class of engineers) have been measuring audio devices for over 100 years. There have also been numerous studies regarding audibility of the different characteristics of sound.

So it's pretty much understood now how to measure everything important for human hearing.

There is only frequency response, noise, and distortion, and we can measure those to an accuracy far greater than human hearing. We have a good understanding of the levels of those things the human ear is capable of detecting. So when a device measures below those levels we know it doesn’t have a "sound"

And here is - for me convincing - evidence that what we are measuring is sufficient:

If we have it wrong, it is fairly easy for you (or anyone) to prove - by a properly executed blind test - that you can hear a difference when the measurements say you can't. But despite all the motivation from 1000's of outraged audiophiles, and, even more so 100's of invested manufacturers who would love to be able to demonstrate how much better their products sound - so far no-one has been able to do so.
"Pretty much" is the keyword here I believe. The difficulty is in most cases not to perform a THD, IMD or noise test, but to make sure you cover all cases and evaluate. SNR comparisons are useless if you do not know the measurement bandwidth, signal levels, weighting and instrument SNR. The last one may be excused, trusting the tester to know the limits of the instrumentation. But do you believe that the people take these things in to account when they compare with some hearing study and claim absolute inaudibility? I'm doubtful. And then you need to cover the cases: ok, so we saw that with a 24bit 48kHz signal we'd get shaped quantization noise within the measurement bandwidth but not with a 192khz signal. What if that signal is 16bit and 44.1khz? Probably fine. But you don't know. I could go on...

What I am trying to promote is not that we stop doing measurements, but adjust attitudes a little bit from "it's inaudible, you are a moron" to "all relevant data we have point to inaudibility".
 
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"Pretty much" is the keyword here I believe
Well, if it’s not enough, people can prove that this is the case. Obviously they failed to do that and just wallowed in their own apparent superiority, wile they could have actually proven their golden ears by performing some basic measurements.
 
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Well, if it’s not enough, people can prove that this is not the case. Obviously they failed to do that and just wallowed in their own apparent superiority, wile they could have actually proven their golden ears by performing some basic measurements.
Who are "they" here? Tbh, the only wallowing in superiority I've seen so far in this thread does not come from the "golden ear" club...
 
Who are "they" here? Tbh, the only wallowing in superiority I've seen so far in this thread does not come from the "golden ear" club...
They:


The fact that there was zero interest in finding out why there was an apparent difference tells you all you need to know.
 
They:


The fact that there was zero interest in finding out why there was an apparent difference tells you all you need to know.
As I stated earlier, I am puzzled as to why they did that. But maybe, just maybe you should read the article if you want to state that they are "wallowing in superiority". Not a good look for you.
 
Is there any chance you could excite some enthousiasm in your friend about another dealer you know who is integer, like Keith proposed? I can understand that you are angry (that's the main reason I clicked on 'like').
I don't know any dealers myself! But I don't think he would listen to me anyway...
 
There's that religion again.
Why so much faith in meters and so little trust in human hearing?

I have tinnitus. No physician would insist that I don't--yet it can't be measured and science doesn't know what causes it. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
Plug some electrodes onto/into your brain and check whether it activates and lights up at certain frequencies. There is your potential way to measure it.
 
I'm doubtful.


Did you read my last paragraph - if tests are not correlating with audibility - why has no-one ever been able to demonstrate that. It only needs one person to verifiably demonstrate they can hear a difference, in a properly controlled listening comparison, where the tests show they shouldn't.

So far:

Crickets.
 
Did you read my last paragraph - if tests are not correlating with audibility - why has no-one ever been able to demonstrate that. It only needs one person to verifiably demonstrate they can hear a difference, in a properly controlled listening comparison, where the tests show they shouldn't.

So far:

Crickets.
LTS has been double blind F/E testing devices for a long time, and there are a lot more of them that fail than pass audibility. As to how to map electrical signal tests of hifi devices to thresholds determined by science, there's no real consensus. You make it sound like these things have been perfect and mature for a 100 years. That is not the case.
 
By
LTS has been double blind F/E testing devices for a long time, and there are a lot more of them that fail than pass audibility. As to how to map electrical signal tests of hifi devices to thresholds determined by science, there's no real consensus. You make it sound like these things have been perfect and mature for a 100 years. That is not the case.
So, then name a single case where there was an audible difference that was not explained by measurements.
 
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