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Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Of course, but my point is that some seem to treat the sale process as an expression of evil through and through, corrupt to its core simply because the sales guy wants to close the sale. It's possible for a sales guy to be friendly as a sales tactic, disappointed if the sale falls through, interested in the well-being of the buyer, and a believer in what he sells all at the same time.
Like the guy who owned a sports shop near me - he'd rather lose a sale than sell you something that wasn't going to do the job, like a pair of boots you wanted but didn't fit you properly. It made me a repeat customer. The shop closed when he decided to retire - not sure whether nobody wanted to take it over, or nobody met his standards.
 
Of course, but my point is that some seem to treat the sale process as an expression of evil through and through, corrupt to its core simply because the sales guy wants to close the sale. It's possible for a sales guy to be friendly as a sales tactic, disappointed if the sale falls through, interested in the well-being of the buyer, and a believer in what he sells all at the same time.
This is true, but a great product at a keen price will largely sell itself. You don't need a salesman for that, just someone to ring up the sale - which anyone can do. You need a salesman if

1) Competition is keen - you want them to buy it from you not the place down the street.
2) They can get a different product than yours that does the same thing for less money.
3) The product is not very good or has a bad reputation.
4) The customer thinks he does not need or does not want the product. Often that's a value add like insurance, extended warranty, underseal, trackers and so on.
 
I'm not taking umbridge with the arguments here; I am just stating this in advance of a simple truth:

Nearly all audio dealerships in the last 60 years have relied on audition; quite literally have stayed in business based on perceived sound quality rather than how the equipment measured, even when the customer came in based on specs he had seen in print. Auditions are also what drives the audio shows like AXPONA (the largest home audio show in the US) or the Munich show (which is the largest audio show worldwide).

That's your argument? Auditions 'work' because retailers rely on them? :oops:

Ever hear of a 'circle of confusion'? Toole applies it to audio recordings but you can just as easily draw one for the dynamic of retail audio.
 
That's your argument? Auditions 'work' because retailers rely on them? :oops:

Ever hear of a 'circle of confusion'? Toole applies it to audio recordings but you can just as easily draw one for the dynamic of retail audio.
I have, and you misread my post, so we're even...
 
Isn't that just 'soft sell'? It's a sales technique just the same as the hard sell.

Also a lot of audiophiles sell it to themselves anyway. They're just wanting to be gently talked into it. They didn't go to into the dealership to get out of the rain.

Wait! You’re telling me that salesman want to sell me something?!!

That can’t be! :)

Obviously I am not imagining that high end audio dealers have gone to the effort and expense of stocking all that gear so they can give free demos to everybody without expecting anything out of it.

Of course, every salesman would prefer that I end up buying something from their store.

This grew out of Atmosphere’s comment that for years many audiophiles have made purchase decisions not simply on measurements, but through listening to gear themselves at stores. Then it seems it was suggested that this was ultimately just marketing making the decision for audiophiles. I’ve simply been pointing out that it’s not like all high end stores were some pressure cooker environment swaying audiophiles into making purchases against their own interests, as if they weren’t agents with reasons of their own being satisfied.

I frequent my favourite audio dealer for quite a while auditioning numerous loudspeakers.
He would’ve been happy if I’d walked out having purchased a loudspeaker every time I was there to audition one. But ultimately, I simply chose the one that I actually liked.

At that point if you want to label it a “soft sell” I just be wondering what your point is.
The fact that I was given the opportunity to audition numerous loudspeakers with no pressure to buy any of them, and the fact that I ended absolutely loving one of the products and purchasing it means….what? I frankly can’t imagine a better scenario.

And since I understood it wasn’t easy keeping a high-end audio store afloat, and that I really appreciated I had such stores in order to actually look at and listen to gear, I was interested in, I made sure to support this dealer when I could. I could’ve gone and bought the same speakers secondhand for much cheaper, but I would’ve considered that to be a real ****** move given the amount of time I’d taken in the dealer’s store, with him carefully moving speakers around into set ups that I preferred, etc. So I saved up my money to buy the speakers from him.
Likewise, when it came to purchasing a new cartridge for my turntable, I wanted a certain cartridge, but the first thing I did was to inquire whether this dealer sold those cartridges because if he did, I wanted to bring my business to him.

So it’s a reciprocal relationship and just the way that I would want. Good for him and good for me. I see no problem with this.

I believe the basic premise is flawed, i.e., because some piece of gear sounds "good" or "bad" in a shop audition means it will sound the same in one's home. It has been said countless times that the room plays a major role in the reproduction of sound...

Sure, but it’s quite possible to get a good idea of the general performance of loudspeaker from a store audition. Personally, I’ve never had any trouble with how the sound of a loudspeaker in a store translated to how it sounded in my home.
As long as the loudspeaker had traits that I clearly liked, I knew that those would show up in my home, but I would be able to dial in the sound even better.

Yes, a lot of audio buyers make themselves easy customers, but that doesn't mean the people selling two them aren't earnest about what they are selling.

Yup.

I’ve had my experiences with awful salesmen.
But I’ve also found high end dealers who are clearly passionate about what they sell, and they themselves are believers in what they sell. And when I found chill dealers who recognized I was an audiophile who generally knew what I wanted, and they could just sort of step out of the way and offer me access to their gear to check it out, I tended to frequent those places for many years and grow friendly with the owners. This was always with the background understanding that this was this person’s business, and I wasn’t there simply to play with his toys, and that he’d really love it if I’d buy something.
And so when I was looking to purchase a piece of gear I would go to these dealers first.
 
At that point if you want to label it a “soft sell” I just be wondering what your point is.
The fact that I was given the opportunity to audition numerous loudspeakers with no pressure to buy any of them, and the fact that I ended absolutely loving one of the products and purchasing it means….what? I frankly can’t imagine a better scenario.

And since I understood it wasn’t easy keeping a high-end audio store afloat, and that I really appreciated I had such stores in order to actually look at and listen to gear, I was interested in, I made sure to support this dealer when I could. I could’ve gone and bought the same speakers secondhand for much cheaper, but I would’ve considered that to be a real ****** move given the amount of time I’d taken in the dealer’s store, with him carefully moving speakers around into set ups that I preferred, etc. So I saved up my money to buy the speakers from him.
Likewise, when it came to purchasing a new cartridge for my turntable, I wanted a certain cartridge, but the first thing I did was to inquire whether this dealer sold those cartridges because if he did, I wanted to bring my business to him.

So it’s a reciprocal relationship and just the way that I would want. Good for him and good for me. I see no problem with this.
Of course it is a reciprocal relationship, and I don't have a problem with people selling or buying.

'No pressure' is still a sales tactic though.

You're obviously aware of the nature of the relationship, but it's surprising just how naïve some people are about this sort of thing.

The dealer is not just selling them some speakers - I mean you need speakers and you have to buy them somewhere - but also expensive cables, magic boxes, magic isolation devices, $40K DACs and so on.

There was someone a while back on another forum saying 'his dealer' had called him to say there was a new loudspeaker cable just come in that he should really come over and have a listen to. And he thinks that by contacting him like this that the dealer is doing him a favour and giving him special treatment!
 
There was someone a while back on another forum saying 'his dealer' had called him to say there was a new loudspeaker cable just come in that he should really come over and have a listen to. And he thinks that by contacting him like this that the dealer is doing him a favour and giving him special treatment!
He was giving him - or rather his bank account - special treatment!
 
There was someone a while back on another forum saying 'his dealer' had called him to say there was a new loudspeaker cable just come in that he should really come over and have a listen to. And he thinks that by contacting him like this that the dealer is doing him a favour and giving him special treatment!

That is a good one!

“ dealer” takes on a bit of a double entendre at that point :)
 
Of course, but my point is that some seem to treat the sale process as an expression of evil through and through, corrupt to its core simply because the sales guy wants to close the sale. It's possible for a sales guy to be friendly as a sales tactic, disappointed if the sale falls through, interested in the well-being of the buyer, and a believer in what he sells all at the same time.

The issue there is that many sales people have little training other than personal experience, many got there by accident, especially in small business environments.

But many books out there over the years have advanced different sales models... the "consultative" approach is quite wide-spread when it comes to selling to informed customers. But there's also the "challenger" model ("let me tell you why you why you need this product to avoid falling behind"), or "value-based" ("this product will pay for itself in just 3 months"), or "relationship-based" ("Dude I got an opening for a round of golfing at Pebble Beach in 2 weeks") and there are probably several more I missed... but I think deep down inside it is a few of these combined that sales people use based on product, customer or situation ("OMG I am not making quota this quarter" tends to change the approach some :-D).

I have been a sales engineer, but I have never had the personality to be a sales person, even tough I have had bosses that tried to push me that way.
 
The issue there is that many sales people have little training other than personal experience, many got there by accident, especially in small business environments.

But many books out there over the years have advanced different sales models... the "consultative" approach is quite wide-spread when it comes to selling to informed customers. But there's also the "challenger" model ("let me tell you why you why you need this product to avoid falling behind"), or "value-based" ("this product will pay for itself in just 3 months"), or "relationship-based" ("Dude I got an opening for a round of golfing at Pebble Beach in 2 weeks") and there are probably several more I missed... but I think deep down inside it is a few of these combined that sales people use based on product, customer or situation ("OMG I am not making quota this quarter" tends to change the approach some :-D).

I have been a sales engineer, but I have never had the personality to be a sales person, even tough I have had bosses that tried to push me that way.
Yes, good salespeople use technique and skill, just as people do in any job if they are any good at it. But all of that works much better if they believe in the product. My point is that the electrical engineer that "designed" the snake-oil product knows good and well that it is snake oil, and that the only way to create value for it is to denigrate the measurements (and experiences) that would undermine that value. But the salesperson, not being electrical engineers or having a lot of specific training, are just as apt to be credulous as are the customers. In fact, I'm always floored when salespeople, who I would assume are wise to sales tactics, are more apt to fall for them than, say, I am.

I'm like you...I know about sales--I've done it, I've hired people that do it, and was raised by and married skilled sales people. But mostly I would simply would rather talk about stuff than sell it. The good salespeople I know buy the stuff they sell, and sometimes (just as do their customers) later discover that it lacked the glorious features that were promised.

I have avoided a lot of modern stuff that I might have bought based on measured performance, simply because I wasn't able to handle it or visualize it in three dimensions. There is a place for showrooms, but frankly the executives of companies that own sales outlets often don't understand the sales process and they screw it up, earning the ire of their salespeople as much as their customers.

Rick "good salespeople make the market" Denney
 
Wait! You’re telling me that salesman want to sell me something?!!

That can’t be! :)

Obviously I am not imagining that high end audio dealers have gone to the effort and expense of stocking all that gear so they can give free demos to everybody without expecting anything out of it.

Of course, every salesman would prefer that I end up buying something from their store.

This grew out of Atmosphere’s comment that for years many audiophiles have made purchase decisions not simply on measurements, but through listening to gear themselves at stores. Then it seems it was suggested that this was ultimately just marketing making the decision for audiophiles. I’ve simply been pointing out that it’s not like all high end stores were some pressure cooker environment swaying audiophiles into making purchases against their own interests, as if they weren’t agents with reasons of their own being satisfied.

I frequent my favourite audio dealer for quite a while auditioning numerous loudspeakers.
He would’ve been happy if I’d walked out having purchased a loudspeaker every time I was there to audition one. But ultimately, I simply chose the one that I actually liked.

At that point if you want to label it a “soft sell” I just be wondering what your point is.
The fact that I was given the opportunity to audition numerous loudspeakers with no pressure to buy any of them, and the fact that I ended absolutely loving one of the products and purchasing it means….what? I frankly can’t imagine a better scenario.

And since I understood it wasn’t easy keeping a high-end audio store afloat, and that I really appreciated I had such stores in order to actually look at and listen to gear, I was interested in, I made sure to support this dealer when I could. I could’ve gone and bought the same speakers secondhand for much cheaper, but I would’ve considered that to be a real ****** move given the amount of time I’d taken in the dealer’s store, with him carefully moving speakers around into set ups that I preferred, etc. So I saved up my money to buy the speakers from him.
Likewise, when it came to purchasing a new cartridge for my turntable, I wanted a certain cartridge, but the first thing I did was to inquire whether this dealer sold those cartridges because if he did, I wanted to bring my business to him.

So it’s a reciprocal relationship and just the way that I would want. Good for him and good for me. I see no problem with this.



Sure, but it’s quite possible to get a good idea of the general performance of loudspeaker from a store audition. Personally, I’ve never had any trouble with how the sound of a loudspeaker in a store translated to how it sounded in my home.
As long as the loudspeaker had traits that I clearly liked, I knew that those would show up in my home, but I would be able to dial in the sound even better.



Yup.

I’ve had my experiences with awful salesmen.
But I’ve also found high end dealers who are clearly passionate about what they sell, and they themselves are believers in what they sell. And when I found chill dealers who recognized I was an audiophile who generally knew what I wanted, and they could just sort of step out of the way and offer me access to their gear to check it out, I tended to frequent those places for many years and grow friendly with the owners. This was always with the background understanding that this was this person’s business, and I wasn’t there simply to play with his toys, and that he’d really love it if I’d buy something.
And so when I was looking to purchase a piece of gear I would go to these dealers first.
Sounds familiar:)

I've had a similar experience some 25-26 years ago with a HiFi shop (which sadly doesn't exist anymore).
I visited them quite a couple of times around that period, to listen/compare.
In the end i bought from them my then speakers, pre-amp and power amp, they were always willing to let me listen to my own CD's (with a nice cup of coffee), and a couple times they lend me (Demo) equipment for home auditioning, of course i realize they didn't do this purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but the point is, they just as well could have said no, so i rewarded them with a purchase, as it should in such a case i think.
What's more, all the purchases from them, i (privately) sold quite recently, they still worked without a hitch, without repair or service.
I sold them because I wanted an upgrade after all that time, not because something was wrong with the equipment.
 
You burn your ears in punishment? How cruel…
I agree that with competent equipment it is a totally unenjoyable exercise to try to establish hearable differences these days. My last experience on the matter was trying to decide if I wanted to keep a Benchmark AHB2 or a NAD M22. In the end (while I still have them), a more humble and yet more feature flexible amp is what I kept in my current setup. Not remotely claiming it's "better", just that the feature set is more convenient, the size is more minimalist, and honestly if there's a difference in SQ it's so small I could not care about it less. The music sounds great.
 
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My brain is absolutely frigging AWESOME! Just an undeniable fact!
“Awesome” seems to be a subjective term, will be hard to undeniably prove this… just saying…
That absolute 100% unshakable faith in ones own ablities & skill is seen as heresy and evil blasphemy by the teminally inadequate here.
No, it’s just an undeniable fact that our sensory organs and the brain on top of that is highly fallible. This is proven time and time again.
"If believing in yourself is EVIL We should all do the sinister" "Come on come on hey yeah" Infectious Grooves
Guess that makes me proud and delighted to be TOTALLY, UNAPOLOGETICALLY, DIABOLICALLY EVIL :cool:
Why is this suddenly a morality thing? Who said you are evil? As for confidence, we value evidence much more.
BUT...........maybee , just maybee. The evil is in the eye of those who try to tear down others faith and confidence.
This is a science based forum. We don’t need faith. There are plenty of other places for that.
Because THEY are pure..... EVIL. Trying to drag anyone who KNOWS they are really good @ what they do down. Because that is ALL they will EVER have. The sick, twisted & perverted satisfaction of tearing down someone WAY better than themselves.
:facepalm:
 
Measurements are VERY handy to visualise WT Hell is going on. Also as a baseline. But SOMETIMES Stuff just don't work out. And don't SOUND right. No matter how decent it measures. In a flash of sheer genius. I found a final solution to those problems. And it works EVERY time.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the scientific method!

This is how we went to the Moon.
 
The question is too much binary for a good answer: everything or nothing. 1 or 0, yes or no.

Measurements are important or contrary our community would be named “Audioperceptionreview”.

Also measurements were chosen in order to give coherency with listening impressions, as color accuracy in terms of Delta E in screen monitors was chosen to match human average visual perception.

So perceptions have same importance than measurements but in a different way.

Measurements should be taken without any doubt and describing predictable average perceptions once acquired the gear, subjective impressions at home must confirm or not the individual relationship with the speakers (for example) and can go against or with the measurements.

Personally if I get a pair of speakers and my impression is deceiving, but have a very good score, I will give them a second, third and four chance: the weight of objective science is very high. But can be broken, or even have a factor (individually perceived) that had not entered the model, as bad interaction with the room.
 
The question is too much binary for a good answer: everything or nothing. 1 or 0, yes or no.

Measurements are important or contrary our community would be named “Audioperceptionreview”.

Also measurements were chosen in order to give coherency with listening impressions, as color accuracy in terms of Delta E in screen monitors was chosen to match human average visual perception.

So perceptions have same importance than measurements but in a different way.

Measurements should be taken without any doubt and describing predictable average perceptions once acquired the gear, subjective impressions at home must confirm or not the individual relationship with the speakers (for example) and can go against or with the measurements.

Personally if I get a pair of speakers and my impression is deceiving, but have a very good score, I will give them a second, third and four chance: the weight of objective science is very high. But can be broken, or even have a factor (individually perceived) that had not entered the model, as bad interaction with the room.
The vision angle is a good one. I am always entertained users demand 4k on their smart phones and yet are perfectly happy with half that resolution on much larger computer monitors...

And on my smartphone they totally exaggerate the impact of 1080 on image quality...

Screenshot_20250807_152711_Settings.jpg

..
 
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Speaking of retailers and their moral responsibility...

I have a good friend who spends all his money in hifi. I've tried to talk to him about abx testings for cables but he got so furious I decided to backpedal. He invested so much (time as well)... our friendship is more important.

So, anyway, he has a 100K system. He has two dealers, and he regularly changes stuff in his system, they buy him some gear back as well. They come to his place to check it out, find solutions and what not.

what I'm FURIOUS about, is that they don't tell him nothing about his room/general set up.

My system costs a tenth of his and I have much MUCH better spatialization, for instance. And it's not surprising when you see how every thing is set up.

They let him buy more stuff, they let him dig into other gear, but they never tell him to change the room configuration. I'm mad at them.
 
Not really in retailers interest to discuss concepts which they don’t retail.
Change dealer to one who is knowledgeable and has a shred of integrity ( good luck with both).
Keith
 
Not really in retailers interest to discuss concepts which they don’t retail.
Change dealer to one who is knowledgeable and has a shred of integrity ( good luck with both).
Keith
Yeah, I didn't mean I was surprised. I said I was furious. You could also say it's in their interest to help their customer reach the most convincing experience. And you could also say sometimes people do things that are not directly in their interest.

(it's not my dealer, I don't need to be advised to change it lol)
 
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