Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[solderdude]

There are at least 2 subjective reviewers that own/bought an ABX device.
Both made posts about owning these devices.
This was a few years ago already.
Neither of them seems to be using that but very likely have been playing with it.
Neither of them has ever made a post about being able to tell certain devices apart using that device.
Both of them continued to use their ears and flowery words to describe 'differences in sound'.

When using a proper test method (when the differences are small) the ability to tell electronic devices apart by sound signature seems to disappear.
The simplest way around that is to blame the test method and continue to do what the followers/readers expect ... flowery words and magic.

 

[Pearljam5000]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

 

[napfkuchen]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case

This argument is based on the false assumption that people evaluate and act rationally/objectively. But they don't.
If, in practice, you follow the professional classification of measurements by experts who understand the science behind them, you can't really go wrong. Amir's reviews always give you the raw data but for me (and most lay people I guess) that's just a bunch of useless noise if you don't know what scientifically makes for a good speaker design for example. The nice thing about it is that after reading a few reviews and perhaps other general sources about audio science, you can get a rough idea of how to evaluate the data and the review itself. I understand the principle roughly as follows: as much objectivity as possible, as little subjectivity as necessary.
And, above all, you don't run the risk of being sucked into an endless vortex of subjectivity, leaving you never satisfied with your own equipment and chasing the next best thing all the time.

 

[Purité Audio]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

They really are everything but you should always listen and ideally compare ‘possibles’ in your own space because there are differences even between really fine designs, dispersion for example.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

I think I've demoed one speaker before purchase in 40 years, I'm sure I'm far from the only one.

That was in the shop so how much did it really tell me compared to how I would use it at home? A little, I could hear that the speaker was not a disaster - but then the measurements told me that already.

I think people mostly demo because:

a) it's how you're 'supposed' to choose equipment
b) They irrationally don't trust measurements or don't understand them
c) There are no measurements available - which should really mean that the speaker should be rejected as an option. It means the manufacturer either did not design with the assistance of measurements or the measurements are bad. Both are fails.

 

[Mart68]

I should add that out of a dozen or more I only ever bought 2 pairs of 'bad' speakers.

One was the first set I ever bought. Fishers - they were the cheapest in the shop, I could not afford any others.

The others were the JPW 'Mini Monitors' which were a stop gap while I was 'between' proper speakers. Good subjective reviews, they were dire.

 

[dominikz]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

These days I'd be perfectly happy to buy speakers based on just seeing a full suite of anechoic measurements.
There's a much, much higher chance of making a 'bad' choice based on a showroom demo or a subjective review, IME.

 

[solderdude]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

For transducers and acoustics most ASR members/readers will agree that those measurements can be at least indicative... for the electronics part... sure measurements can show everything... when all aspects are measured correctly under relevant load conditions.
The interpretation of all those measurements is a totally different ballgame though and it takes a good understanding of all the plots and numbers.

 

[Pearljam5000]

My point was Neumann and Genelec both measure excellently
But sound completely different
So if I was to go only by measurements without hearing them I wouldn't know how different they sounded from one another

 

[Purité Audio]

I haven’t heard Neumann here but I would be extremely surprised astonished in fact if they sound, ‘completely different’.
Keith

 

[goryu]

Yes, all ABX or similar double-blind tests rely on judgments - either perception or preference. But, how consistently they make that judgment above chance (e.g., 18 out of 20 correct) becomes objective evidence, metric, or data.

Collecting subjective data and using statistics to transform it into objective evidence (Harmon curve?) doesn't mean it will apply to me or any other singular individual. It's just a group tendency. I would rather look to objective performance data first to identify well engineered devices, then demo them in my space to see if they meet my subjective preferences.

 

[goryu]

My point was Neumann and Genelec both measure excellently
But sound completely different
So if I was to go only by measurements without hearing them I wouldn't know how different they sounded from one another

I don't recall seeing anyone here say that measurements alone are all one needs to make decisions. They make a rational starting point. How something sounds to an individual in their space in combination with their system and room should be the final arbiter. Measurements are a great filter to winnow the endless options and cut through the marketing bs endemic to audio. They are an invaluable tool to insure one is starting with as pure a baseline as possible. What happens to the signal in your system and your room is for you to judge after that.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I haven’t heard Neumann here but I would be extremely surprised astonished in fact if they sound, ‘completely different’.
Keith

One man's small difference is another's big difference

 

[Mart68]

I haven’t heard Neumann here but I would be extremely surprised astonished in fact if they sound, ‘completely different’.
Keith

Likewise. Having done some very ad hoc blind comparisons it's surprising how similar a lot of speakers are when you don't know which is on.

Urei 811 vs Focal 926 Electra I could only tell by the difference in bass extension and they are totally different designs.

 

[boxerfan88]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

Agreed.
If unit available for demo, check the measurements, then trust your ears.
If unit not available for demo, then trust the measurements.

 

[boxerfan88]

Doesn’t measure that great, but sounds damn good to his ears. His #2 personal best speaker.

YT: 0-2OWJ0RmX8

 

[Newman]

If measurements were everything
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements...
Which is not the case
So measurements... Aren't everything.

This is terrible logic. Let me reframe your statements to bare the illogic.

If measurements were everything and everyone was willing to learn it
Then everyone would buy speakers without even hearing them at all and would just rely on the measurements... indeed
Which is not the case because huge numbers of people resist the truth even when explained with all the supporting data, and the education/information channels are rife with misinformation, both wilful and ignorant, resulting in mass confusion and ignorant belief in falsehoods
So measurements... Aren't everything even when they are

cheers

 

[guy48065]

I don't recall seeing anyone here say that measurements alone are all one needs to make decisions. They make a rationale starting point. How something sounds to an individual in their space in combination with their system and room should be the final arbiter. Measurements are a great filter to winnow the endless options and cut through the marketing bs endemic to audio. They are an invaluable tool to insure one is starting with as pure a baseline as possible. What happens to the signal in your system and your room is for you to judge after that.

Words to live by.

I'm sure I'm getting a reputation of being anti-science. I'm not. Look at my profile photo. I'm a Metrologist (retired). My life is measurements. I feel obliged to push back against those who feel our human hearing offers nothing and can't be trusted.

Any piece of kit you're considering should have to run the gauntlet of tests to see if it has any obvious flaws but the final arbiter should be your ears. Does it sound natural? Can you live with it?

 

[dominikz]

My point was Neumann and Genelec both measure excellently
But sound completely different
So if I was to go only by measurements without hearing them I wouldn't know how different they sounded from one another

Haven't we gone through this same discussion a few times already?

They have different dispersion patterns so they *should* sound different to some extent.

And sure, some people will probably prefer one dispersion pattern over another in direct (side-by-side) comparison.

But a good speaker is still a good speaker. I can't really imagine that I'd hate any dispersion pattern if the speaker is well designed, even if I found I had a preference for a slightly different dispersion pattern.

But it is easy to end up hating a speaker bought based on e.g a subjective review or showroom demo, as it can actually end up being terrible...

 

[goryu]

I feel obliged to push back against those who feel our human hearing offers nothing and can't be trusted.

Any piece of kit you're considering should have to run the gauntlet of tests to see if it has any obvious flaws but the final arbiter should be your ears. Does it sound natural? Can you live with it?

One has little choice but to trust one's own ears to make one's own final choices. The important point is one shouldn't trust the ears of others to make one's own choices.